engaging the active shooter

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I think some of you are overthinking the friendly fire thing.
Once, when under fire, the PD came up from behind. My pistol was in hand and I was behind cover. I saw them and waved them in. It was obvious to them that I wasn't the one firing the shots. Point man came up, and as I holstered. pointed the area of interest out, and gave a sit-rep, he waved the others in. I was thanked and went to the rear for debriefing.
It's not rocket science, unless you're charging down the mall yourself.

The reality will be one of 3-4 things.
1. You'll be in earshot of the event and evacuate.
2. You'll be downrange at a distance and take cover and shield whoever you can and I assume take up a position from cover. And unless your position is untenable due to an advancing adversary, you probably will never fire a shot.
3.You'll be downrange and it'll be you and him, along with all the other poor souls near you.
4. Or, just maybe, you'll be in his 'four-to-eight oclock' and if offered a clear downrange, you can engage. Maybe.

There will be many variations, but for us civilians to fully engage like Nanuk will may lead to complications, so to speak. Like charging down the mall and catching friendly fire. Unless you're with, not near, but with a LEO and helping him. Keep word is 'with'.

A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.
YMMV.:eek:
 
As unlikely that it is for me to ever be in a place that active shooters seem to find so attractive it is necessary to think it through.

If with family, they are number one and we put distance between us and the shooter as fast as possible. If pinned down defend them with everything I got.

If by myself my first instinct would be to stick around and help. However, the heroic attempt carries a huge set of probable negatives:
dealing with cops doing their job (absolutely no disrespect intended),
jail time - loss of income / job,
possible criminal charges,
attorney expenses,
time in court - loss of income / job,
shooters lawsuits / family,
collateral victims lawsuits / families,
property damage lawsuits,
etc.

Remember, it's 2013 USA
 
No shame in either. I believe myself to be one of those who will stand and fight. If I have a gun I'll fight with the gun... if I have a knife that will have to do. The one thing I am equipped with is my belief that I will prevail... against any odds. I never enter a confrontation with a defeatist attitude. I dont believe I can win... I KNOW I CAN WIN!
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Excellent point!! This is what it really comes down to doesn't? Make the choice before hand, prepare the mind and body, because when the shots are being fired, particularly in your direction, all you will have is what you have programmed into that section of the brain that completely takes over when your life is on the line (the mid-brain). Having served many years as an LEO, with several hundreds of hours of SWAT/Tactical training, including active shooter drills, I believe I am thoroughly programmed to run towards the active shooter and I have already made that decision in my mind.

One thing about the friendly fire issue. I do see some concerns with it but when the monster is destroying innocent lives, I think it is just one of those justifiable risks that you have to take. Interestingly enough, there have been very few situations involving active shooters where there was an armed individual in the immediate vicinity and even fewer times when a uniformed officer was right there on scene. I suggest that it is highly likely that the majority of the killing will be over before the first uniform arrives.
 
I disagree with the one recent post. Some of these "active shooters" may not have formal skill training or be ex-military/LE but their mental state & skill with video games(first person shooter) may aid their marksmanship.
As I posted in the past(before the awful Sandy Hook school shooting), there was a young boy who shot 15 of his 17 victims in the head. He later told investigators he never fired a real weapon but played a lot of video games.
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Yep, and unskilled shooter was able to make a lot of effective head shots. Some folks argue against head shots based on their skill and training, and yet head shots are often quite effective. There is, however, a time and place for taking such shots and the bad guy has the luxury of hitting bystanders that a good guy does not have (ala New York cops).

I find it interesting that "we" (various gun folks) cast dispersions on bad guy skills by noting how the bad guys may be untrained, indicating that somehow bad guys are less effective or not able to handle conflict, but yet many of us think that putting guns into the hands of teachers or other CCW folks is an effective defense against active shooters when said teachers and MOST ccw folks probably have less gun time than do the bad guys. Yes, some of us are well trained, are LEO or military trained, attend numerous gun schools, teach shooting, and/or own our own gun ranges, but as far as CCW folks go, we are a completely different group of people in terms of training and skills, worlds apart.

10). Last, consider that there may be a reason why God (or fate if you wish) put you, armed and trained, at that very spot and place in time, with the ability to save innocents. This is the life-giving sword (or gun in this context) that some ancient warriors discussed in their writings.
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In one is to invoke divine reasoning or preordination for placing you at a shooting, then you must consider that you may not be there for the purpose of saving innocents, but because God or fate wants you dead, or put more kindly, that it is your time to be called home. You may be the lamb, not the lion, even if you are a lamb armed to the teeth.
 
Good point, DNS.

I'll also state that a mediocre shot, who is hell bent on killing, is going to be a lot more effective than a IPSC champ who can't bring himself to fire on a human being- or hesitates too long if he does make the decision.

This is precisely the reason we train cops to make the force decision based solely on the other party's actions. You do A, I do B. It minimizes hesitation, thinking too long or anguishing about what must be done. You picked it- not me. I just happened to be standing in your way on the day you sealed your fate.
 
Well, it's a bad situation no matter how you cut it. I think if I had family with me, then I would have to do whatever was best for them. So, am I or my family being fired upon, am I fixing to be fired upon? It looks to me like I would either need to be shooting, running, or crawling away, or hiding behind something.

I would say that the right training would help in making the best decision, also knowing what you can do with you carry gun, would enter into it. An accurate, and powerful carry gun would make some difference in this case. With a heavy gun, even hits on a bullet proof area might help to stop the perp long enough to get closer or make a better follow up shot, but a tiny mouse gun would not be very effective. A man's really got to know his limitations.

It has been said that most men regret the things they didn't do, more then the things they did do. One thing that I would regret is knowing that I let other people die, because I didn't have the guts to do something in my power, when I had the chance.
 
Do you run to the fire to put it out, run from the fire screaming in terror or stand by while a minority attempt to do something about the fire. Without a standing army or navy a minority of the colonists took on the most powerful army and naval force in the world and beat them by staying the course. Today a majority of the so called reasonable people suggest we should run and hide from danger and surrender our arms to any authority who asks for them. I think not.
 
My single biggest concern with engaging an active shooter is this- how does a responding LEO discern me from the bad guy? From what it sounds like some here plan on going bad guy hunting if they are in a large building/park/campus etc. What is going to run through your average LEOs mind when he sees you armed and on the move? Put yourself in their shoes. Not only do you run the risk of getting shot by first responders there's also a good chance you make headlines as a second shooter. Not that the latter is critical or even matters at the time but that's not how I'd like to be remembered.

I suppose it all comes down to location and timing. If I don't have to go looking for the shooter then by all means I will do something about it. But if I have no visual and just hear gunshots, I'm keeping my weapon holstered and looking to put distance between myself and that noise. If that's not an option I'll improve my defensive position as best as resources allow, draw my weapon, and be ready.
 
I should probably clarify that my comments are from the perspective of an old cop and gun-toter from way back. I expect things of myself that I do not require of anyone else.

I stated earlier that I have no truck with any private citizen who avoids a confrontation with a rampaging active shooter. And yes, if you're running around waving a gun when de po-po show up, it could end badly for you. You need to think about that, and whether you and your gun are up to the fight, before covering distance toward the threat, instead of away from it.
 
It seems that some imagine a confrontation with an active shooter to be some long protracted shootout lasting long enough for the police to arrive minutes later. Protracted shootings are very rare. I cant see engaging a shooter for any longer than it would take for me to make two or three shots.

In my experience with armed confrontations the greatest tactical advantage anyone may have is the advantage of surprise. I believe thats enough of an advantage to make all the difference.
 
The batman theater shooting was just diabolical in nature. It is a situation were perhaps if one or two people had a gun in the theater, it might not of have done anything. However, even though he threw smoke people could likely still see the flash of his rifle. In less he had a flash suppressor, but even then the sound would emanate from one area. The element of surprise is an advantage the spree shooters have. However, if one has a weapon on them that element is also transferred to you. For instance, he doesn't know who has the gun so he won't be able to shoot you first. Furthermore, it would cause the shooter to perhaps at least run for cover or fear for his life this could prevent more deaths until the cops come. In some situations yes unfortunately even having a gun would not help. But, certainly not all of them, the intimidation factor of being shoot at will certainly ring in the killers mind and decisions. For example, watch the actions of these cowards once the police arrive IE either surrender or commit suicide.Now, if everyone had a gun they likely would all know where the bad guy is at. For example, if you are at a party and one person starts throwing water ballon's you all know who threw it first and from where.
 
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Glenn Dee said:
" ... some imagine a confrontation with an active shooter to be some long protracted shootout lasting long enough for the police to arrive minutes later. Protracted shootings are very rare. I cant see engaging a shooter for any longer than it would take for me to make two or three shots. ..."
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The evidence supports your claim almost universally. The overwhelming tendency of active-shooters is to commit suicide at first sign of any serious resistance. This also negates the "how can I go up against a guy with a rifle?" notion.
 
I would venture to say that most of these spree shootings could of been negated or terminated if a law abiding citizen engaged the shooter. How many active shootings have happened at a gun shop? They want a hot knife and a piece of butter. However, I think access to basic firearm defensive training should be more affordable and available to common citizens.
 
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As for the police mistaking me for the bad guy, I'd be no deader with a cop's bullet in me than I would be with the bad guy's bullet in my back. I'd see it as an acceptable risk.
I've been badly injured and come very close to losing my life while at work and while enjoying the outdoors, theres some level of risk in just about anything you do.
A Tombstone that said "killed while stopping a mass murder's shooting spree" (maybe with a tasteful bias relief of the fallen Leonidas carved on my foot stone) sounds a lot better than "run over by a speed boat while trying out a sail board", or "camp stove blew up" and the incident caught on video to be shown endlessly on youtube.
 
Ha, Rainbow Demon,

My sentiments exactly. I'm an old guy who will move towards the fire, circumstances dictating, doing what I can. While the possibility of a responding officer shooting me in the back is very real, I think it's far back in line.
 
FWIW, I teach judgmental use-of-force and gunfighting tactics to law enforcement and armed private security agencies nationwide. The info provided by the OP is spot on.
 
I would venture to say that most of these spree shootings could of been negated or terminated if a law abiding citizen engaged the shooter. How many active shootings have happened at a gun shop?
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You do realize that "active shooting" means the period of time in which shots are being fired, right? So lots of "active shootings" have happened in gun shops, but not too many mass shootings. Of course, there aren't all that many gun shops and of the ones that exist, most are fairly small operations. Given that mass/spree/rampage shooters tend to do their deeds where they have some direct connection, usually where they have had or perceive to have had some sort of trouble or conflict.
 
What if Heroes were the Norm?

What if You read in the newspaper or on the internet or saw on TV, the story of a Hero, who stepped up and took action, and even though You and Everyone Honor that Hero, You realize in a Nation of like minded People that You and almost Everyone Else would have done the same thing?

What if a mass murderer in a School or Movie Theater or Shopping Mall or Restaurant would be confronted by a Fire Team or a Squad or even a Platoon of Legal Concealed Carrying Citizens intent on stopping him in his tracks?

What if every would be mass murderer knew they would be confronted by Law Enforcement or the Military or an Army of Concealed Carrying Citizens as soon as they fired a weapon.

What if the General Public and the Government looked upon an Army of Concealed Carrying Citizens instead of a danger, as Guns for the Common Good?

What if the General Public and the Government looked upon an Army of Citizens with Firearms as a deterrent against Foreign Invasion or even our own Government?

What if we as Concerned Citizens through the NRA started a fund, not for all shootings, but for these mass shootings, a fund to help the Surviving Victims and the Families of the Surviving Victims and the Fallen in their time of need?

What if we started an organization called “Citizens Against Gun Violence” with members who were only “Pro Gun” but concerned about finding solutions to the mental health problems of these mass murderers?

What if We as a People, had the Courage to look out for Everyone, realizing if that were ingrained in Society as a whole, our Country would be a safer and better place for our Loved Ones?

We as Firearms Owners need to forget our differences and come together because we have one heck of a PR Campaign to win.

What if?
 
A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.
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You did a...what?:eek:

You're on the job, aren't you?
 
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A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.
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You did a...what?

You're on the job, aren't you?
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I second Powdermans question. Are you on watch?

Vigilante moves are really grey to most people.
 
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