ending threat just by presentation?

[Frank Ettin]

I think your last two quotes (above) are incorrectly attributed. Please edit.

Oops, sorry. You're correct, and I goofed. I've fixed it.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Depending on your local laws:

Drawing a firearm doesn't automatically you're brandishing it. Ever heard of low-ready? Why would some of the best firearms instructors teach this for more reason than shooting a paper target?

If opportunity permits, drawing to low-ready in an escalating situation might be the best avenue to end the threat.

rmocarsky, a few members have provided three key words in helping you be informed: Ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. A book I highly recommend buying is written by none other than fellow Staff member pax and Mark Walters.

http://store.whitefeatherpress.com/books/kathyjackson/lessons-from-unarmed-america.html

Lessons From Armed America was a very well written book which hammered home those three key terms and educates sound decision making on when and when NOT to use a firearm.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Seaman: What should I do if a gang of perps have trespassed onto my property (backyard) and have been told to leave and are now 10 feet in front of me and are now rushing me?

Ans: the same thing you would do if the same persons were to rush you in the same manner in any other outdoor location.

Forget "trespass", forget "my property". When it come to using or threatening deadly force, those factors are irrelevant.

In one or two jurisdictions, one may present a firearm under circumstances in which physical force would be justified. Know your laws.

 

[SgtLumpy]

If threatened by a perp (or perps) who have opened my gate and tresspassed into my fenced backyard, I do not draw my handgun, because I do not want to invoke a boatload of Murphy by brandishing, which btw is illegal here in Michigan.

First, I say 3 words in a loud firm voice : "STOP, GO BACK." If there is time I repeat the command. If they do not comply, I draw my CCW and fire. If my gun clears leather it goes boom.

I find this very confusing indeed. You're reluctant to draw your weapon when you have a burglary in progress because of your preceived interpretation of your state's brandishing ordinance, yet you're not reluctant to fire your weapon if you decide to pull it out?


There's simply a WHOLE lot of armchair sillyness going on in this thread. Lot's of macho "By god, If I pull it out, I'm shooting with it" nonsense.


IMO, pre-basing your actions on what the local cops tell you is "ok to do" is extremely poor planning. If anyone believes that what your local genderme suggests is ok to do in a lethal encounter, I suggest you get that opinion in writing, signed by that officer and submitted to the governmental authority that officer works for, for review and confirmation.

Once you shoot the burglar, or begin the process of burying your wife, the "but officer Smith told me that was ok" will quickly become meaningless.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[deepcreek]

I have only pulled a gun on someone once, didn't shoot because I thought it would land me in prison I was so.. close to. I will tell the story because it has to do with yard issues.

Once years ago I was staying in a bachelor pad some of the guys their had a fight with some others out and about earlier in the evening.

So about 2am I hear some noise and go out in the yard (large yard with a drive way and about 4 cars) with a 9mm hicap down the small of my back to find 4 guys with bats and clubs marching on the yard they start bashing the glass out of the first car they get to.

I yelled "HEY" they saw me and started advancing to me with the bats and clubs raised. I pulled the gun, the lead guy saw it and had a moment of shock so I ran with it, told him to turn around put the gun on his heart and kicked his legs from under him. The rest of the guys ran away.

a few seconds later some people came out of our house saw the damage and started beating the guy. i told them to stop because he was taking a lot of damage and it would probably kill him after a much more. So they guy limps, crawls and gasps off into the shadows.

15min later the police show up with reports of a "kidnapping" we say "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.
They get a call on the radio they found a half conscious guy crawling in the street a few blocks away.
We say "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.

The police separate the guys with the bats and gets 3 different stories, we refused to talk to the police about it= "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.

I was very worried about Monday and what the prosecuting attorney would put together out of this. Turned out he had no case.

I feel I came very close to going to prison that night shooting the gun or not. I feel if I would of shot the gun I probably would have had a lengthy jury trail and....?

Their is usually no black and white in fights. But there is usually a prosecuting attorney trying to make cases.

I still say I don't pull guns unless I am going to use them, which is not always true But.. it keeps the intention there. If you don't have intention you are just waving a gun around like a heartless scarecrow.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by deepcreek: So about 2am I hear some noise and go out in the yard (large yard with a drive way and about 4 cars) with a 9mm hicap...

It is rarely prudent to venture outside to investigate a noise.

Significant risks include the following:

• Ambush;
• being mistaken for a criminal by an arriving first responder who has already been summoned, or by another armed citizen wit hte same idea, and possibly being shot; and
• having one's defense of justification weakened by the fact of having ventured out armed, should force, deadly or otherwise, be used.

Over the years we have seen example after example of unfortunate results. Best to stay in a position of safety unless one is a police officer in communication with and supported by other officers.

 

[Seaman]

"Never rely on a verbal comment from a policeman for a legal opinion. Consult a criminal trial attorney who is knowledgeable of the use of force laws." [OldMarksman]

"I find this very confusing indeed." [SgtLumpy]

Ahoy Swabs,

OldMarksman: I studied CCW law pursuant to obtaining a Concealed Pistol License. My Instructor has two decades experience with the Detroit PD, both on the streets and in the courts. In addition, I have queried my local PD (walking distance), where a senior detective (also 2 decades experience) has given me advice. And of course, I have spoken to many regular cops along the chain. Their advice has been harmoniously similar, seems we are on the same page. And my nephew is an experienced criminal attorney.

SgtLumpy: Sorry to be so obtuse. By "do not want to invoke a boatload of Murphy by brandishing," I mean I'm not going to draw my gun and use it as a negotiating tool. The criminal often has the advantage and I won't give him another one by drawing my gun (and not shooting). For example: while I'm yapping and pointing my gun at them, in the dark, my neighbor (a cop) mistakes me for a perp and puts one in my back... or one of the perps surrepititously compromises my 6 and puts a blade in my back... or the perps hit the deck and shoot me... etc. Its all bad. Remember perps have a plan A, plan B, etc. I grew up in the big city, and I've been other places too.

I will see what I can do about getting something in writing from the appropriate authority.

All I want to do is get safely to my bed and dream of beautiful women.

Thank you both for your comments.

 

[dayman]

Maybe I'm wrong, but "holding someone at gunpoint" seems like it would only be problematic if you were intending on doing it for an extended period of time.
If the situation ever arose I'd probably either instruct them to leave and let the police deal with finding them again, or if that seemed like a bad idea for some reason, I'd have them cuff themselves to something immovable and wait for the police to show up.

To the OP - if open carry is legal in your neck of the woods this might be one of the few times I'd suggest it. A large visible handgun on your hip when you ask them to leave might send them on their way without you ever having to draw. Plus, on the off chance that you ever did need it, it would be more readily accessible.

 

[MLeake]

In the OP's case, I might see the "No Trespassing" signs, and raise with "Beware the Dog" signs, then get a couple of trained dogs. Rotties, if one likes big and menacing, or Malinois, if one prefers more compact but super intelligent.

Mean-looking dogs have worked wonders for keeping local delinquents out of friends' yards in the past.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Seaman: I will see what I can do about getting something in writing from the appropriate authority.

Forget getting something in writing unless it is consistent with Posts 7, 8, 16, 33, 42, 43, and 57. Short version: do not draw unless it is justified, and do not believe for a moment that just because you have drawn, you may lawfully fire.

All I want to do is get safely to my bed and dream of beautiful women.

Then search on "ADEE" and live by it.

 

[southjk]

Then search on "ADEE" and live by it.

I searched ADEE and found:

The Association for Dental Education in Europe
Adee Plumbing
Alvey A. Adee - Diplomat
Adee Phelan - British hairdresser
Adee Kaye Watches

Which one were you referring to?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://blog.hsoi.com/2009/02/11/self-defense-acronyms/

Skip and Johh Hsoi - great guys, btw.

 

[armoredman]

Sorry, had to ask an earlier poster,

Many people carrying gun are not aggressive enough to use them and many people get them stripped away and used against them. Are you prepared to shoot an unarmed person who tries to strip your weapon?

I've heard this bandied about before by untold number of anti rights persons - have any stats on how many lawful carriers do have their guns taken away from them? Please don't include police.

Defensive Display is useful enough that Arizona codified it into law.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/00421.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
B. This section does not apply to a person who:
1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.
2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.
C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

If you were man enough to pull the weapon on a threat you better be ready to use it.

I tried doing the chest beating Tarzan yell for ya - gave myself a coughing fit. Macho's got nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[Seaman]

"Then search on "ADEE" and live by it. " [OldMarksman]

Agreed, OldMarksman, you wanna know if there's a way out, I'm off the patio and into the house, barricade the door, and 911...not 1911.

And should the perps break down the door, well... they won't get another verbal warning.

Best to you.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Armoredman: Defensive Display is useful enough that Arizona codified it into law.

If you study the history of the law, it was less the purported "usefulness" of defensive display than the perceived need to protect citizens from unjust prosecution for aggravated assault that led to its enactment.

A reasonable belief that physical force is necessary is a prerequisite, and the law does not mention drawing a firearm.

There are a couple of states that permit the actual presentation of a weapon under certain circumstances in which deadly force is not immediately necessary.

 

[armoredman]

Hmmm

A reasonable belief that physical force is necessary is a prerequisite, and the law does not mention drawing a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

I would hazard a guess that exposing it might mean holding it in your hand. When AZCDL helped push this one, it was meant to cover things like going to the low ready. Perhaps we should ask for a clarification to the law, but the legal opinions I've been "exposed" to said it covers unholstering.
Also, you juxtaposed two different things - physical force, and deadly physical force.

A reasonable belief that physical force is necessary is a prerequisite, and the law does not mention drawing a firearm.

There are a couple of states that permit the actual presentation of a weapon under certain circumstances in which deadly force is not immediately necessary.

If you don't mind, the AZ definitions, since we strayed off into this territory;
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/00105.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

...14. "Deadly physical force" means force that is used with the purpose of causing death or serious physical injury or in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury.

...while physical force;

32. "Physical force" means force used upon or directed toward the body of another person and includes confinement, but does not include deadly physical force.

...and the law says,

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

So, using the AZ definitions, this law makes this state one of the ones you mention - it gives the right to display a weapon when there is no threat of DEADLY physical force, but it does require a threat of PHYSICAL force. I don't know if it's been tested in court yet - it's still new.
But, I've digressed, apologies to the OP, this thread wasn't just about one state. Hopefully the info was useful.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Armoredman: So, using the AZ definitions, this law makes this state one of the ones you mention - it gives the right to display a weapon when there is no threat of DEADLY physical force, but it does require a threat of PHYSICAL force.

The distinction is primarily one of whether one may lawfully present--draw--a weapon. I would not want to contend that I could draw because I could expose or display a firearm or place my hand on it.

Just to nitpick, in Arizona one is permitted to exercise defensive display when physical force is justified and when there is a reason to believe that it is immediately necessary to defend against physical force, while in one of the others, the law reads that one may lawfully draw when physical force is justified.

I don't know if it's been tested in court yet - it's still new.

Not to my knowledge, but before the law was enacted, people were being convicted for aggravated assault for what is now known as defensive display.

Arizona attorney Michael P. Anthony recommends that persons who do not face an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death do not draw. See page 40 of this. Anthony goes on to say (referring to Arizona law) that under other circumstances in which defensive display is justified, it should be restricted to verbally informing the aggressor that one is armed and/or placing one's hand on the firearm without drawing.

 

[MLeake]

Personally, I'd recommend getting some retention training if part of your plan is to notify the aggressor or to make a defensive display.

I recommend retention training to CCers in general, but the perceived need - to me - becomes that much higher to anybody who leans toward a deliberate revelation or display.

 

[Pilot]

I think very often, the sight of a firearm will end the threat, and have the attacker fleeing. However, many of these incidents are not reported, as nothing has really happened. No shots fired, and nobody harmed.

 

[Hook686]

If pulling the gun ends a threat (the assailant turns and runs, for example), you would not be justified in shooting. As Brian notes, laws differ on when you're justified in displaying a gun, but even in those where it's legal to display it only if lethal force would be justified, the point is that you should be prepared to use it, not that you must.

My main thought on the idea of holding fire when you draw if the situation has elevated to a lethal level is the conditioning that is being set. If the BG is 25 feet from you and moving toward you (creating the elevation to a lethal level) how much time do you have to react ? I think if you pause for that split second to see what the BG is going to do, you are dead meat if he has a knife.

Likewise I think it bad idea to draw when the BG is 50 feet away yelling about how he is going to kick your butt and slowly moving toward you. Are you going to draw at this point and hope the BG runs away ?

Again I think it depends upon your jurisdiction. As crappy as it sounds, in California the DOJ publication indicates that one is expected to take a beatdown before drawing a weapon.