ending threat just by presentation?

[Spats McGee]

I am not gambling on that. I am just saying "evidence" is not a magical thing that always appears. and robbers do not always run and call 911.

I'm well aware that evidence does not magically appear. You seem to disregard the fact that there are sources other than one of the two parties involved in an incident.

The part quoted above is not "all you're saying." Several pages ago, you wrote this:

Unfortunately there are also several reasons not to report such an indecent.

Many people have called law enforcement for help or trying to be a helpful citizen only to find themselves in handcuffs facing prison time. Not that it is always the fault of the officers but we have a legal system that is not always looking out for the better of our citizens.

Someone calls law enforcement says they just scared off 3 robbers at gun point they now have one guy who has admittedly threatened people with a gun=felony. Then if they get the 3 guys they will just say something like "we just asked for a lighter.”
The only case law enforcement and prosecutor has is the guy with the gun. Sorry “it's the law..” Sorry “just doing my job..”

Not saying people should not call law enforcement but be careful. Results may vary.

Yes, one should be careful when calling law enforcement. But my take on this is that you are advising folks not to call law enforcement (the last line of the above-quoted notwithstanding), and I question whether you have a solid understanding of self-defense law and police procedure. I would suggest that it is better to plan for contact with law enforcement, than to plan ways to avoid said contact. Juries don't like guys that try to cover things up.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Someone was saying earlier most incidents in their area are unreported “I'd bet less than 1% are reported.” Which is common in some areas...

Well, no one said exactly that. A number of people have speculated that only a small number of defensive gun uses in which the gun is not fired get reported. A number of people have speculated that detail on such incidents might not be captured and readily discoverable by usual research methodologies.

But no one put any numbers to those speculations, so you pulled the "1%" out of the air. And since this is just a matter of unsupported speculation (although not unreasonable) we can not really have any good idea of what the actual numbers might be.

Furthermore, what the number of such incidents which go unreported might be is somewhat beside the point.

1. Persons knowledgeable about the subject recommend that if one is attacked or threatened by someone with lethal force under circumstances in which the person attacked or threatened (the "actor") reasonably concludes that he is justified using or threatening lethal force in self defense, the actor should promptly report the incident even when the assailant has fled without a shot having been fired. As the attorney author of the USCCA article to which you, yourself, furnished the link wrote:
   
   

   • ...It is critical to be the first person to relate events to the police. The first report sets the tone for the case...

     
     and
     
     

   • ...It is essential that the citizen report every use of his gun, even if nothing more than displaying the gun for the benefit of threatening psychotics or thugs...

   
   
2. It is at least unwise, and perhaps even foolish, to assume that such an incident would not be discovered.
   
   
   • As Spats McGee, an experienced lawyer, wrote in post 115:

     ...If I show my weapon, the BG might leave the scene, then he may call the police to try to "beat me to the punch." Alternatively, he might be stopped for speeding as he flees the scene. When asked why he was speeding, he might say that some guy pointed a gun at him and scared him...

     
     
   • As Spats then wrote in post 119:

     ...That assumes that if the one who presents the firearm to deter the threat doesn't call the police, then the police will have no way of finding out about it. It's possible, but far from guaranteed, that the police will never know it happened...

     
     
   • As the attorney author of the USCCA article noted:

     A Missouri homeowner was arrested after running off a pair of thieves at gunpoint.
     
     The thieves went to the sheriff’s office to complain of being threatened at gunpoint, with a spurious story to explain their presence at the house. The sheriff bought their story,...

     
     
   • There may have been witnesses of whom you weren't aware, and one of them could report the incident.

So where is the “evidence” if 2 people in the dark face off decide not to fight go separate ways?

But that's not the situation. One person was attacked or threatened, and he defended himself. But as has sometimes occurred the attacker or a third party reports the incident, the defender's credibility is severely damaged if he hadn't promptly reported the incident himself.

...Personally I will weigh the situation I am in and make a strategy as things unfold. But I am not hard wired to speed dial 911 at every confrontation. I don't like court and I try to avoid it when possible...

You're of course free to follow that path yourself.

What's important for us, here, is that others who might be reading this thread understand that (1) your opinions in this regard aren't well thought out; (2) your opinions in this regard aren't necessarily well supported considering the realities of the law, the legal system and police procedure; and (3) doing things as you propose doing them might get one into a lot of trouble.

All opinions are not equal.

 

[deepcreek]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
There is always evidence.You're of course free to follow that path yourself.

What's important for us, here, is that others who might be reading this thread understand that (1) your opinions in this regard aren't well thought out; (2) your opinions in this regard aren't necessarily well supported considering the realities of the law, the legal system and police procedure; and (3) doing things as you propose doing them might get one into a lot of trouble.

All I am saying is people should think out things when they are involved in a serious life changing event. Will one solution fit all situations? No.

Why is that such a bad proposal ? Because it does not agree with yours ?

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
There is always evidence.

Again their is not always evidence. Evidence is created be careful what evidence you create against yourself. You as a lawyer should know this.

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
All opinions are not equal.

No they are not. free legal advice from the internet probably is not the best.

 

[MLeake]

deepcreek,

Your advice about selectively not calling 911 borders on advocating criminal activity. It is socially irresponsible. It flies counter to the advice given by self-defense instructors, attorneys, and investigators.

The only scenario where such advice could conceivably make sense (assuming one was justified in the use of deadly force) would be in the case of a known corrupt police department and court system.

A friend who resides overseas had his local police chief (in that country) give him the advice you are giving, but he is in a country where the foreigner is always wrong, and where even those who were justified in self-defense are expected to pay a blood debt.

Your concept, as applied in the US, is at best foolish and socially irresponsible, and at worst criminal.

Why do you keep digging yourself deeper?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Why is that such a bad proposal ?...

MLeake answered that pretty well:

...deepcreek,

Your advice about selectively not calling 911 borders on advocating criminal activity. It is socially irresponsible. It flies counter to the advice given by self-defense instructors, attorneys, and investigators....

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by deepcreek: Why is that [(the recommendation for a lawful defender to not be the first to report a use of force incident)] such a bad proposal ?

Simply because, if it is first reported by someone else and the defender cannot provide a good reason for that fact, the defender will have, through his failure to report first, created evidence providing probable cause and indicating possible criminal culpability.

The risk exposure continues until the statute of limitations has run out.

Because it does not agree with yours ?

Actually, it does not agree with the advice of any knowledgeable expert in the field of law enforcement, the criminal justice system, or use of force laws.

Evidence is created be careful what evidence you create against yourself.

Good thinking.

Do you really think that a citizen's report of having lawfully presented a weapon would suffice to bring about arrest, charges, or conviction for assault or aggravated assault, and/or that the risk of that happening is more serious than the risk of being considered guilty of a crime because of not having been the first to report? Do you have a supportable basis for that belief?

free legal advice from the internet probably is not the best.

Right.

Frank Ettin and Spats McGee are lawyers, but they are not your lawyers, and they are not providing you with legal advice.

If you do disagree with the logic of their arguments, you can find a criminal defense attorney who is familiar with self defense cases and consult him or her. Your conversation would constitute a privileged legal communication and, unlike these posts on a public forum, would not be subject to discovery and use against you in court.

Might I also recommend that you sign up for MAG-20, where this subject is covered in detail. It is highly likely that at least some of the people in the class will be practicing attorneys.

 

[Spats McGee]

Here was the original question:

Are there any legitimate statistics that state the percentage of threats that have been stopped when nothing more happens than a firearm is brought to bear by the intended victim?

Given the distance that this thread has wandered from its point of origin, and having reached a very nice stopping point in OldMarksman's well-spoken last post, I think it safe to say that this one has run its course.

Thank you all for your civility, but this one is done.