ending threat just by presentation?

[Tactical Jackalope]

A lot of people are forgetting that the attacker usually has the drop on us and clears the distance to be in our faces before we can even think of drawing. :/

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you draw, open fire. Otherwise, don't draw.

Absolutely terrible advice and not legally supportable. The reasons have all been stated at length.

If you draw and the assailant breaks off and flees, your use of lethal force would not be justified; and you have become a criminal. If he surrenders, you have a problem you'll need to deal with; but if you shoot him, you'll have a much bigger and more personal problem that will last a number of years.

 

[Spats McGee]

If you draw, open fire. Otherwise, don't draw.

Bad advice. If the threat retreats, and you still open fire, that could be a very expensive mistake.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A lot of people are forgetting that the attacker usually has the drop on us and clears the distance to be in our faces before we can even think of drawing.

Not in the scenario posited by the OP. So your comment is irrelevant.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

If you draw, open fire. Otherwise, don't draw.

I thought you were a firearms instructor?

Ettin and McGee said it. I don't recommend that either. To anyone.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Not in the scenario posited by the OP. So your comment is irrelevant.

It's relevant in most scenarios that a citizens will encounter if they were to encounter. Bad guys always have the drop on us. There is no arguing that.

 

[csmsss]

But I would hope that these punks would "scatter" if I stood up and yelled "HOLD" and presented and racked the slide.

Racking the slide indicates that you either have an empty chamber (bad idea) or that you're shucking a perfectly useful cartridge onto the deck (equally bad idea).

Since you are on YOUR property, you are under no obligation to keep your firearm concealed from your uninvited guests, but at the same time, you're not permitted to point it at them and threaten them (this is called brandishing and is a big boy crime).

My suggestion would be to secure that gate such that it cannot be opened without breaching a lock (or a very tall climb), as well as post prominent No Trespassing signs such that it is impossible to enter your property without seeing at least one. And I'd recommend you have your firearm and a cell phone with you when you are enjoying the evening's stars. If someone attempts to breach your gate, you should have time to enter your house, secure it, and call 911 from the better security of your household. No reason to confront the uninvited guests unless and until their actions make it unavoidable.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Bad guys always have the drop on us. There is no arguing that.

They might have the initiative in that they choose the time and place and begin that act; but they aren't always holding a gun on the erstwhile victim. So your statement is not true.

Now, stay on topic.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

They might have the initiative in that they choose the time and place and begin that act; but they aren't always holding a gun on the erstwhile victim. So your statement is not true.

Agree to disagree. I think that's just an opinion versus opinion. I'll stick to mine.

OP should learn basic fight skills as well. It's not all about the gun either.


I also second the notion to fortify the fence/gate.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...OP should learn basic fight skills as well. It's not all about the gun either...

You're really not paying attention, nor are you being helpful.

Some people will not be able to do much with basic fighting skills -- due to age, disabilities, health problems, etc. And in this thread the OP wrote, in post 32:

...We are over 60; neither of us can run. And I certainly am not Chuck Norris...

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

You're really not paying attention, nor are you being helpful.

Ok..I feel you aren't being helpful either.

I'm paying attention just fine. Just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm "wrong" or not "paying attention".

I also wrote to fortify the backyard. Calling me "wrong" every chance you get like that should be an "end all" to the discussion, is a little low too.

Again, just like I know people who are well over their 60's in my old dojo. I gave that advice. OP doesn't like it? Fine. Fortify the backyard.

Just like I know most encounters that I have seen, the criminal has the drop on the citizen. From a LE standpoint mind you. You don't, so I'm "wrong" and what I say is "invalid"?

Nit picking at me isn't helping the OP either.




EDIT: It's an open forum for us to all to answer from our opinions isn't it?

 

[Jammer Six]

Yup, you guys are right. I stand corrected.

 

[Spats McGee]

Enough of the bickering, please. Let's get back to the OP's questions and quick squabbling over who's being helpful and who's paying attention or not, shall we?

 

[stephen426]

The only absolute rule I believe most of us would adhere to is don't shoot unless you absolutely have to. "Absolutely have to" means that failure to shoot will most likely lead to the death or serious bodily injury of yourself, a loved one, someone you are charged to protect, or possibly another person.

For me, I have drawn my weapon twice in self defense but did not have to point it at the person. The first time, some guy tried to run me off the road (after trying to smash me into the median on the highway for honking at him). I moved over two lanes to avoid him after he nearly side swiped me and slammed on the brakes in front of me. When I slowed down, he slowed down. When I sped up, he sped up. Right after he tried to side swipe me, I drew my gun and had it pointed at him, but just under the window so he couldn't see it. If he reached for a weapon, I would have presented my weapon. If he pointed a weapon at me, I would have fired immediately. Someone (I assume was an off duty cop) saw the whole thing and pulled in between us with his windows down. He was holding something towards the guy (I assume a badge) and he told me to take off. Gun drawn and ready in case things got worse, but never presented and no shots fired.

The second situation, I was in a fast food restaurant parking lot late at night (2 am). Three guys were crossing in front of me so I stopped and let them pass. The first two guys pass and the third guy turns towards me right as he is directly in front of the car. He puts his hands on the hood of my car, does a little jump and runs directly towards my window which was open (just picked up order). Amazingly, I was able to go from both hands on the wheel to drawing my gun (under center console) and have it at the ready before he even reached my window. I even had the presence of mind to have it right next to the steering wheel rather than pointing it right at him. Pointing the gun at him may have allowed a gun grab while having it right next to the steering wheel would have enabled me to fired by just turning my wrist. The guy immediately saw the gun and gave me some crap about about just playing around. If I was Miami, I probably would have grabbed him by the throat and shoved the gun in his mouth before asking what he wanted. There were a lot of car jackings back in the day so I hardly feel anyone could be charged with brandishing for doing so. Regardless, no shots were fired and the guy probably had to change his underwear if he was indeed just playing around. If he was intent on robbing me, I definitely thwarted his plans. This is another situation where I drew my gun and did not have to fire. I was ready to act if needed, but thank God I didn't have to shoot.

I have no issues with pulling the trigger and shooting someone if I feel my life or the life of a loved one is in serious danger. Sometimes the mere presentation of a gun will diffuse a situation. If things seem to be getting pretty bad (potential justifiable self-defense situation), I will draw my gun. I will only pull the trigger if I absolutely have to.

I am also sure there are many situations that go unreported where the mere presentation of a gun makes criminals retreat. Few would dare to try and press brandishing charges since they may have criminal records. Self-restraint goes a long way and keeps your life from getting infinitely more complicated!

 

[Seaman]

"One should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances the immediate use of the gun would be justified. But if upon presenting the gun the threat ends, e. g., the assailant turns and flees or immediately surrenders, one would not be justified in shooting. " [Frank Ettin]

immediate - 1. Occurring at once; instant.


In other words: "if justified, draw and shoot"

"If you draw, open fire. Otherwise, don't draw." [Jammer Six]

"Absolutely terrible advice and not legally supportable." [Frank Ettin]

Contradictory?

What should I do if a gang of perps have trespassed onto my property (backyard) and have been told to leave and are now 10 feet in front of me and are now rushing me?

I would never back-shoot an assailant in flight, unless of course he was a spree-killer/active shooter.

But as for the perp/s running off, it becomes very difficult if they are rushing me and I draw and fire (to save my life). Truthfully, I doubt the perp will see the gun before they feel the bullet. Some of us folks are pretty quick.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I think the attempt at absolute literalness is a bit silly.

Everyone understands what is meant. You don't draw your gun unless you're WILLING to fire and there is a reasonable expectation that shooting is or will be imminently necessary.

The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly."

Frankly, both are stupid.

 

[Spats McGee]

"One should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances the immediate use of the gun would be justified. But if upon presenting the gun the threat ends, e. g., the assailant turns and flees or immediately surrenders, one would not be justified in shooting. " [Frank Ettin]

immediate - 1. Occurring at once; instant.


In other words: "if justified, draw and shoot"

Umm, no. Copying from your quote, Frank said "one should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances immediate use of the gun would be justified." That does not mean "In other words: if justified, draw and shoot." It means do not draw unless you can legally justify shooting.

I am by no means advocating that anyone here allow themselves to be clobbered by an gang of wild maniacs, but thinking along the lines that "if the gun clears leather, I git ta shoot someone," or even "I HAVE to shoot if I draw" is a bad way to view SD shootings. In no jurisdiction of which I am aware is one automatically justified in shooting just because he drew.

I have seen it written on the internet (where, of course, everything MUST be true . . . ) that if you draw your firearm on someone but don't shoot them, then you can be charged with brandishing. Without doing a great deal of research on the issue, I have to say that I find it improbable. Is it impossible? No. I do think it unlikely, though. Besides, let's take a look at two different scenarios, and for the sake of argument, assume that I would be justified in drawing my firearm:
1) I draw my gun on a bad guy. He retreats. I reholster without firing a shot. Under the aforementioned internet theory, I could face a brandishing charge for having pointed a weapon at a guy without just cause.
2) I draw on a bad guy and shoot him, 'cuz, you know, my gun cleared the leather and I've always heard that if I draw, I need to go ahead and shoot to demonstrate that I was justified in drawing my firearm. Now I face all kinds of possible charges: murder, attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, whatever your state happens to call it.

I'll take Door #1, thank you very much.

 

[Seaman]

Ahoy McGee,

""Umm, no. Copying from your quote, Frank said "one should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances immediate use of the gun would be justified." That does not mean "In other words: if justified, draw and shoot." It means do not draw unless you can legally justify shooting. "" [Spats McGee]

I'm fine with your interpretation.

As for door #1, no I wouldn't draw my weapon unless I were under imminent deadly threat: i.e. perp is advancing with knife or gun and has made it clear that he intends to rob, assault or kill me. Drawing a gun otherwise can invite all kinds of trouble.

As for door #2, I would not draw my gun, unless there is justification to do so (I am under imminent deadly attack.) Period.

As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'

We are all here to get the best advice possible, our lives may depend on it.

Best to all.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I have seen it written on the internet (where, of course, everything MUST be true . . . ) that if you draw your firearm on someone but don't shoot them, then you can be charged with brandishing. Without doing a great deal of research on the issue, I have to say that I find it improbable. Is it impossible? No. I do think it unlikely, though...

This is how I analyzed that issue (post 16):

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:

an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm, when done for the purposes of intimidation or to secure compliance, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.

...As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'...

Just to clarify, Brian in no way implied anything about you personally. He posited two hypothetical statements, attributed to no one, and characterized the statements as stupid. What he wrote exactly was:

...The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly."

Frankly, both are stupid.

 

[Seaman]

RE: Errors & Omissions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger "...As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'... "

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman ""...The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly." Frankly, both are stupid.""

Mr. Ettin:

I think your last two quotes (above) are incorrectly attributed. Please edit.

On the whole, I find your posts most informative.

Thank you for your diligence and industry.

Best to you.