Fishing_Cabin
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Encounter with police
- Thread starter ltc444
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Willie Sutton
Moderator
"We have had the tendency over the last few decades to describe things as "wars," when they are merely social and sometimes law enforcement objectives or programs"
Precisely.
The real thing that someone like me finds frightening is the difference between departments. Where I live I wave at my local LEO's on the road, have helped them at first aid scenes, and generally greet everyone with a smile. If I am pulled over I know it's for a social call mixed with the news that my brake light is out. All good.
Then I go to California and am sitting in my rental car in the parking lot of a hotel near the airport at 10:00PM, wrapping up my GPS cord before going into the lobby to check in for a nap before an early flight out. Without warning two police cars, with 4 guys pull up in front and in back of my car, jump out, weapons drawn, and proceed to carry out what can only be described as a felony stop. No chance for me to produce my (military) ID, or answer any questions. handcuffed, tossed into a car after having my pockets turned inside out, and then watch my car be disassembled, my wallet stripped, my iPhone searched of it's email and text messages, all of the photos on my iPhone looked at, and basically violated in every way. When it was all done (and I had the shift sergent standing there in front of me, with a pocket copy of the US Constitution in my hand that was reading from), his answer was "Well, you are a white guy in a nice car sitting in ther parking lot of a hotel on the wrong side of the freeway... this is a high crime area and we wanted to know whet you were doing here"..
Interestingly enough, the photo that was on the screen of my iPhone when it was returned was of my holding a Colt SAA out in the desert that I had taken a month before this. It was 200 photos back from the end of the photos, so they had looked at every one and concentrated on this one. Lesson learned there... always have your phone on "lock" so nobody can pick it up and rifle thru your personal text messages, emails, and pictures "under color of law". My wife seriously thought about suing for invasion of her privacy for them looking over some photos of her that she had sent me to encourage me to come back home sooner... you can well imagine what they looked like..
It's obvious that some departments are OK and others are simply enforcing their idea of a police state upon us. The lesson I learned from this stop is to trust no LEO that I come into contact with, and that you can be tossed into jail for essentially nothing. If I had been legally transporting that Colt SAA with me in my suitcase to be checked as baggage to go home with me, I am CERTAIN that I would have been arrested for no reason at all. No doubt, zero... these guys were doing their very best to make an arrest.
Bottom line: I was in genuine Condition White, rolled down my window with a smile, said "What's up, Officer" and was held at gunpoint and was traumatized and terrified. I'm a fighter pilot, BTW... not much scares me. I have NEVER been threatened by any criminal like I was threatened by those who had "to protect and serve" painted on their car.
I'm in condition Orange now every time I interact with a cop. They taught me this, not anyone else. If you are a LEO and you read this, know full well why guys like me want nothing to do with you. We can't tell the good ones from the bad. The only prudent choice when confronted with the unknown is to consider all of you to be bad. Sure I'll be polite... I'll also be terrified.
Willie
.
Precisely.
The real thing that someone like me finds frightening is the difference between departments. Where I live I wave at my local LEO's on the road, have helped them at first aid scenes, and generally greet everyone with a smile. If I am pulled over I know it's for a social call mixed with the news that my brake light is out. All good.
Then I go to California and am sitting in my rental car in the parking lot of a hotel near the airport at 10:00PM, wrapping up my GPS cord before going into the lobby to check in for a nap before an early flight out. Without warning two police cars, with 4 guys pull up in front and in back of my car, jump out, weapons drawn, and proceed to carry out what can only be described as a felony stop. No chance for me to produce my (military) ID, or answer any questions. handcuffed, tossed into a car after having my pockets turned inside out, and then watch my car be disassembled, my wallet stripped, my iPhone searched of it's email and text messages, all of the photos on my iPhone looked at, and basically violated in every way. When it was all done (and I had the shift sergent standing there in front of me, with a pocket copy of the US Constitution in my hand that was reading from), his answer was "Well, you are a white guy in a nice car sitting in ther parking lot of a hotel on the wrong side of the freeway... this is a high crime area and we wanted to know whet you were doing here"..
Interestingly enough, the photo that was on the screen of my iPhone when it was returned was of my holding a Colt SAA out in the desert that I had taken a month before this. It was 200 photos back from the end of the photos, so they had looked at every one and concentrated on this one. Lesson learned there... always have your phone on "lock" so nobody can pick it up and rifle thru your personal text messages, emails, and pictures "under color of law". My wife seriously thought about suing for invasion of her privacy for them looking over some photos of her that she had sent me to encourage me to come back home sooner... you can well imagine what they looked like..
It's obvious that some departments are OK and others are simply enforcing their idea of a police state upon us. The lesson I learned from this stop is to trust no LEO that I come into contact with, and that you can be tossed into jail for essentially nothing. If I had been legally transporting that Colt SAA with me in my suitcase to be checked as baggage to go home with me, I am CERTAIN that I would have been arrested for no reason at all. No doubt, zero... these guys were doing their very best to make an arrest.
Bottom line: I was in genuine Condition White, rolled down my window with a smile, said "What's up, Officer" and was held at gunpoint and was traumatized and terrified. I'm a fighter pilot, BTW... not much scares me. I have NEVER been threatened by any criminal like I was threatened by those who had "to protect and serve" painted on their car.
I'm in condition Orange now every time I interact with a cop. They taught me this, not anyone else. If you are a LEO and you read this, know full well why guys like me want nothing to do with you. We can't tell the good ones from the bad. The only prudent choice when confronted with the unknown is to consider all of you to be bad. Sure I'll be polite... I'll also be terrified.
Willie
.
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Cascade1911
New member
Interesting that. Might it have something to do with the Sheriff being an elected official rather than a political appointee? A while back the county I grew up in tried to move from a county sheriff to police department. Thankfully the voters didn't fall for it.
In my area id take the local police over the sheriffs anyday. The police are respectful and the sheriffs all have little man syndrome and its just annoying.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Fairfax County, Virginia, has had a police department only since about 1940 but there's still a sheriff. But I wouldn't call the chief of police a political appointee. They are recruited, often nationally, as law enforcement administrators. They are hired, not exactly appointed, and by elected county officials. I don't know which system produces the better results but it might depend on what results you are looking for. Some sheriffs get bad press any more.
CaptainObvious
Moderator
Uh-oh, this is another one of those threads which pick apart and criticize the actions of police officers. Usually the moderators shut these things down fast, but not so fast. Please allow me a chance to counter these overly critical remarks.
First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals. There is a selection process which includes testing and intensive interviews. There is a myth that you have to know someone to get on this force, but that is just a myth. The fact is you still have to pass all that testing to get on. Once you are aboard, the selection process is not over. There is the academy and then the probabation period which not everyone makes it through. Your first three years aboard you are very carefully watched and the Chief can send you packing VERY QUICKLY. Just try showing up late for work or get caught off your game and you are gone just like that.
Second, managing a law enforcement agency is one of the toughest jobs to have out there. Before you become critical of their decisions then ask yourself if you can do better. Most people simply cant do any better and the decisions being made are actually the best ones which could be made.
Third, there is no officer out there who makes commission. Believe me, they dont want to do extra work like the next guy. If you find yourself being pulled over, questioned or searched then there is a reason. Most of the time you only hear one side of the story, but if the officers could talk freely then they would enlighten you on the other reasons. Remember, there are two sides to every story. I authored a thread in this forum telling you exactly how to behave and what to say during these moments. Basically, stand still, say nothing, obey orders and verbally state to the officers you do not want to be searched. I wouldnt focus on the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, but focus on your behavior at the time. Stay still, stay silent, dont answer questions and vocally object to any searches which are being performed.
Fourth, the initial post of this thread is about the shooting in Pasadena. Lets keep in mind that none of that would have happened if the person involved did not run from the Police. If they had followed my simple strategy outlined previously then they might be walking free right now.
First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals. There is a selection process which includes testing and intensive interviews. There is a myth that you have to know someone to get on this force, but that is just a myth. The fact is you still have to pass all that testing to get on. Once you are aboard, the selection process is not over. There is the academy and then the probabation period which not everyone makes it through. Your first three years aboard you are very carefully watched and the Chief can send you packing VERY QUICKLY. Just try showing up late for work or get caught off your game and you are gone just like that.
Second, managing a law enforcement agency is one of the toughest jobs to have out there. Before you become critical of their decisions then ask yourself if you can do better. Most people simply cant do any better and the decisions being made are actually the best ones which could be made.
Third, there is no officer out there who makes commission. Believe me, they dont want to do extra work like the next guy. If you find yourself being pulled over, questioned or searched then there is a reason. Most of the time you only hear one side of the story, but if the officers could talk freely then they would enlighten you on the other reasons. Remember, there are two sides to every story. I authored a thread in this forum telling you exactly how to behave and what to say during these moments. Basically, stand still, say nothing, obey orders and verbally state to the officers you do not want to be searched. I wouldnt focus on the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, but focus on your behavior at the time. Stay still, stay silent, dont answer questions and vocally object to any searches which are being performed.
Fourth, the initial post of this thread is about the shooting in Pasadena. Lets keep in mind that none of that would have happened if the person involved did not run from the Police. If they had followed my simple strategy outlined previously then they might be walking free right now.
ScottRiqui
New member
I'm not really sure how to fairly compare apples to apples, but consider that the NYPD alone outnumbers the active-duty SEAL community by more than ten to one.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
Not to mention that we don't see too many slothful SEAL's here hanging around the Dunkin Donuts.. 
To say that hiring and retention standards in LEO positions is, err... "highly variable" is accurate. To say that selection and retention standards in the Navy is highly standardized and rigorous is also accurate. There's no comparison possible between the two. I've never seen a fat or poorly educated or just plain angry or lazy or incompetent or overtly hostile SEAL (Bearing in mind that I work with them professionally).
LEO's? Uhh.... don't get me started. We've all seen it.
Smile guys...
Willie
.
To say that hiring and retention standards in LEO positions is, err... "highly variable" is accurate. To say that selection and retention standards in the Navy is highly standardized and rigorous is also accurate. There's no comparison possible between the two. I've never seen a fat or poorly educated or just plain angry or lazy or incompetent or overtly hostile SEAL (Bearing in mind that I work with them professionally).
LEO's? Uhh.... don't get me started. We've all seen it.
Smile guys...
Willie
.
Pbearperry
New member
I belong to several forums and these type of topics come up all the time.I don't understand all these traffic stop stories.I have been driving for 46 years and have been stopped twice last time 40 years ago.I have to make a guess that many people who belong to gun forums drive like complete idiots?Or maybe they are just keyboard Ninjas?
ScottRiqui
New member
I've probably been stopped 8 or 9 times over the last 25 years, mostly for traffic infractions. Every time, the officers have been polite and professional, so I can't believe that's totally a coincidence.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
I think it's highly variable based on location. In both NJ and WI, where I've lived for years, I have never had a problem. In Inglewood CA, however, going into a Hotel and minding my own business the night before a business flight, I saw deep into the maw of a system that could absolutely destroy someone, with what can only be described as completely lawless behaviour that flies directly into the face of the Constitution. That disparity is what completely changed everything for me.
The reason people run from cops is because they are fearful. Some might be fearful of what they have done... some might be fearful for what the cops have done to them previously without reason or with poor reason. Until I was victimized, and there is no other word for it, I would never have believed it was true. But now... no more. No more condition white when I interact with LEO's for me, sorry.... my security requires that I treat every encounter as if they are going to take away my freedom. Treat "the civilians" as the enemy and you alienate them forever. It only takes once. It sticks for life.
Willie
.
The reason people run from cops is because they are fearful. Some might be fearful of what they have done... some might be fearful for what the cops have done to them previously without reason or with poor reason. Until I was victimized, and there is no other word for it, I would never have believed it was true. But now... no more. No more condition white when I interact with LEO's for me, sorry.... my security requires that I treat every encounter as if they are going to take away my freedom. Treat "the civilians" as the enemy and you alienate them forever. It only takes once. It sticks for life.
Willie
.
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Fishing_Cabin
New member
To all of you..
While I do understand some of the stories and issues, I, as for myself, got in to law enforcement because I had a bad experience once. Its not worth going in to here, but it lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, I could do something better, and have an impact, however so small.
While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure. While it is true that some law enforcement agencies do define theirself as one of the two of the above, choosing a title for the structure leads to, in itself, kind of grouping or setting itself apart from the other sections of the community. The choice of title, or wording of it is above my pay grade at this moment, so I have little choice in it. Many agencies though use the terms losely as a way to define their structure of rank, no more, no less. Some tend to carry it farther. My agency does not use a term for the structure of rank, other then to define in definition what each rank is, and their function/role in the agency. As with any title or rank though, there are those who feel that it does not apply, is if offensive because of their personal service, or is of less importance because it is not a "real military rank earned" and other similar trains of thought. This is not only limited to the typical ranks in law enforcement such as sgt, lt, capt, etc, but I have also seen it up north when visiting a friend. While visiting my friend this time, I had the, umm, pleasure to learn how an elected commissioner felt it was wrong/dis-service/unethical/etc that a law enfocement leader to be titled a police commissioner. I am sure that some indian tribes may object to the term "Chief" being used in law enforcement and fire service, since neither of these have a recognized or historical tribe. I also know many commissioned military officers who have a huge problem, to put it in a small fashion, that police are called "officers" as well, since they are not commissioned in the military, trained as such, as well as serving as such. Even the term "sworn" I have been "politely" told at times is offensive since it was not "sworn in" in the military sense. In law enforcement the term "sworn" and "unsworn" generally merely describes job duties, and the information available to the person. It shouldnt matter whether its protecting the country as a whole, or a section as small as a local community, or doing just any job/career at all. I could go on but there is little need. I dont care what term or definition, someone will object to it in time.
Dont get me wrong, I am the son of a LtC, and have had family over seas in various ways for years, since before I was even born over the years. One was a even POW. We are all equal in that we serve the better good of our country as a whole.
I do understand the "fear," as it is always a part of my life, in and out of uniform. I lost a couple of friends when they found out I started rookie school years back, who still avoid me to this day, for no other reason. I have other friends/family who act differently toward me noticably when I am in uniform, vs, out of uniform. They speak to me that it is the fear they have of the enforcement aspect. I even have one friend who is a medic, that refuses to take a meal break together when our shifts match up. He says its "uncomfortable" but both of our families do many things outside of our work, and even go out for lunch dinners, cookout together, ball games, etc. The mere difference of the uniform changes things though. Even dealing with the others in the community, I get the tired old "your one of them" type comments no matter how hard I try to keep things equal.
As to the "slothful seals" comment...While growing up the proud son of my father who served and retired as a LtC, I have had my share of many veterns who claim that, for which they are not. Whether seal, ranger, etc, Ive seen my share. The few military members that have "been there, done that" never discuss it, or at least in my experience. It wasnt until a funeral of my great uncle did I learn his service, and his confinement as a POW. It was never mentioned in any way before. My own family members never would acknowledge that they actually served and did their best to move on and avoided anything related to the issue. While I do not serve the country as a whole, I do serve a segment. My service is humble, and while I respect everyones service, small, or large, perhaps we can all be more humble. I am thankful for everyones service, and I am sure they are thankful for my own. Lets try to treat us as an individual person and not a group.
Bless, and pray for those who serve, no matter in what way they do indeed serve.
While I do understand some of the stories and issues, I, as for myself, got in to law enforcement because I had a bad experience once. Its not worth going in to here, but it lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, I could do something better, and have an impact, however so small.
While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure. While it is true that some law enforcement agencies do define theirself as one of the two of the above, choosing a title for the structure leads to, in itself, kind of grouping or setting itself apart from the other sections of the community. The choice of title, or wording of it is above my pay grade at this moment, so I have little choice in it. Many agencies though use the terms losely as a way to define their structure of rank, no more, no less. Some tend to carry it farther. My agency does not use a term for the structure of rank, other then to define in definition what each rank is, and their function/role in the agency. As with any title or rank though, there are those who feel that it does not apply, is if offensive because of their personal service, or is of less importance because it is not a "real military rank earned" and other similar trains of thought. This is not only limited to the typical ranks in law enforcement such as sgt, lt, capt, etc, but I have also seen it up north when visiting a friend. While visiting my friend this time, I had the, umm, pleasure to learn how an elected commissioner felt it was wrong/dis-service/unethical/etc that a law enfocement leader to be titled a police commissioner. I am sure that some indian tribes may object to the term "Chief" being used in law enforcement and fire service, since neither of these have a recognized or historical tribe. I also know many commissioned military officers who have a huge problem, to put it in a small fashion, that police are called "officers" as well, since they are not commissioned in the military, trained as such, as well as serving as such. Even the term "sworn" I have been "politely" told at times is offensive since it was not "sworn in" in the military sense. In law enforcement the term "sworn" and "unsworn" generally merely describes job duties, and the information available to the person. It shouldnt matter whether its protecting the country as a whole, or a section as small as a local community, or doing just any job/career at all. I could go on but there is little need. I dont care what term or definition, someone will object to it in time.
Dont get me wrong, I am the son of a LtC, and have had family over seas in various ways for years, since before I was even born over the years. One was a even POW. We are all equal in that we serve the better good of our country as a whole.
I do understand the "fear," as it is always a part of my life, in and out of uniform. I lost a couple of friends when they found out I started rookie school years back, who still avoid me to this day, for no other reason. I have other friends/family who act differently toward me noticably when I am in uniform, vs, out of uniform. They speak to me that it is the fear they have of the enforcement aspect. I even have one friend who is a medic, that refuses to take a meal break together when our shifts match up. He says its "uncomfortable" but both of our families do many things outside of our work, and even go out for lunch dinners, cookout together, ball games, etc. The mere difference of the uniform changes things though. Even dealing with the others in the community, I get the tired old "your one of them" type comments no matter how hard I try to keep things equal.
As to the "slothful seals" comment...While growing up the proud son of my father who served and retired as a LtC, I have had my share of many veterns who claim that, for which they are not. Whether seal, ranger, etc, Ive seen my share. The few military members that have "been there, done that" never discuss it, or at least in my experience. It wasnt until a funeral of my great uncle did I learn his service, and his confinement as a POW. It was never mentioned in any way before. My own family members never would acknowledge that they actually served and did their best to move on and avoided anything related to the issue. While I do not serve the country as a whole, I do serve a segment. My service is humble, and while I respect everyones service, small, or large, perhaps we can all be more humble. I am thankful for everyones service, and I am sure they are thankful for my own. Lets try to treat us as an individual person and not a group.
Bless, and pray for those who serve, no matter in what way they do indeed serve.
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Willie Sutton
Moderator
That's a thoughtful answer, and is received in the spirit that it was sent. I'll just comment on this:
"While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure."
What follows is a simple legal fact: There are two "powers" in the United States: Military, and Civil.
Military is the Department of Defense. Period. Their mission is to defend us against external enemies. Nothing more, nothing less.
All others are Civil. The FBI, State Police, Local Police Departments, etc.. they are civil authorities. Those who staff them are civilians. Officer, dispacher, all of them. They are US, they represent US, they serve US, and protect US... and when they start thinking about themelves as different than us, they forget who they serve and they mis-serve us.
One thing that really changes an officers mindset is to think of "us" as civilians while considering himself "something else". Change that mindset, make sure that the officers KNOW that they are civilians, just like the people they supposedly serve and protect, and you remove a huge barrier of communication.
The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?
Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I can assure you that the LEO's of the Ingleside CA PD could use some of your wisdom.
Willie
.
"While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure."
What follows is a simple legal fact: There are two "powers" in the United States: Military, and Civil.
Military is the Department of Defense. Period. Their mission is to defend us against external enemies. Nothing more, nothing less.
All others are Civil. The FBI, State Police, Local Police Departments, etc.. they are civil authorities. Those who staff them are civilians. Officer, dispacher, all of them. They are US, they represent US, they serve US, and protect US... and when they start thinking about themelves as different than us, they forget who they serve and they mis-serve us.
One thing that really changes an officers mindset is to think of "us" as civilians while considering himself "something else". Change that mindset, make sure that the officers KNOW that they are civilians, just like the people they supposedly serve and protect, and you remove a huge barrier of communication.
The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?
Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I can assure you that the LEO's of the Ingleside CA PD could use some of your wisdom.
Willie
.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
I am glad it was recieved in the spirit that I meant. I can, and do understand the insult as mentioned. As to the "who is serving who" part, it is up to the courts to decide, as there has been a limit placed on the protect aspect, but not the serve.
Just speaking for myself. While I am glad to respond, and help/serve in any way I am able to with in the law/policy, there are certain parts I am unable to help with. Such dispatched calls have been, but arent limited to, plumbing issues (repairing water heater), parenting issues (child wont stay in the house), electrical issues (they didnt pay the bill), and on and on. More to your point though as for the service part. I feel there is a line between being there to help (service), and being there to enforce (protect). Many times with the help/service issue, it is beyond what we can do as an officer. Even if we know how, we are limited in tools, time, and legal responsibility, even though many of us, do indeed try our best to resolve any issue we come accross. The enforce/protect issue, while having been before the supreme court in Castle Rock v. Gonzales, is still contested in many ways due to the conflict between serve AND protect. As to the enforce/protect issue, at times our hands are tied as well due to laws enacted, or court decisions. There can be no 100% on both, only do the best that is possible. Many enforcement actions only "serve" to protect the public at large, but is a punishment on the "individual", which is another part of the issue. I do forsee, a limit placed on the "serve" part of law enforcement at some point in the future by the courts.
Respectfully,
Fishing_Cabin
P.S. As to who should be more humble, my opinion is we should be equal.
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I have been driving close to 30 years and have been stopped numerous times for speeding, talking on the cell etc.
When I am stopped I turn on the dome light, keep my hands on the wheel and obey all commands and speak politely.
A few years ago I was stopped doing 91 in a 65mph zone. After being pulled over the officer asked me if I had ever been pulled over in that state before.
I replied yes 2 years prior. He then notified me that the prior ticket was showing as unpaid and my license was suspended due to it.
I told him that it was paid and how and where I paid it.
He could have thrown me in jail for the weekend and let the judge figure it out on Monday however he let me go with a ticket and a notice to appear.
I think the way you interact with the police goes a long way towards how you are treated as long as they don't have their mind already made up on how they are going to treat you.
No offense to anyone but I don't mind being called a civilian. I was in the army on active duty for three years, three more reserve and a year in the D.C. National Guard but it feels odd to be referred to as a "vet." But of all the people who work where I do, only one other served in the armed forces.
CaptainObvious
Moderator
Willie Sutton,
The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious.
The stop you are describing is a "Terry stop" and has been argued in the Supreme Court. The police have a right to conduct such stops. I know "it sucks" to be on the receiving end, but you have to realize these stops keep us all safer and the community free of crime. Lets say there was a stranger loitering outside of your home for an extended period of time without any obvious reason. Wouldnt it be reasonable for the police to stop and question that individual or would you rather the individual just keep loitering outside your home without anyone questioning their presence?
The military is unlike any law enforcement agency. Almost anyone who meets some basic criteria can enlist in the military whereas very few ever make it to become police officers. The police academy is at least as rigorous or more rigorous then any boot camp in the military. When you get through the basic training in the military, then your job is relatively secure. Even if you screw up a few times or your commander thinks less of you then you can continue on in the military. However, on any police force they will monitor you closely for at least 3 years. Any screw ups or if the Chief doesnt think your a good fit then your out the door before the probationary period expires. During the first 2-3 years on the job, you can expect there to be at least monthly, if not weekly, meetings critiquing your performance and they will watch your every move. After the 2-3 year probationary period, it doesnt end there. You are constantly held to a higher standard and every action is scrutinized. Unlike the military, you need to be able to justify whatever you do in a court of law. Every officer eventually ends up on the witness stand being questioned by a defense attorney with the whole world watching. So not only do you have to get through the selection process, make it through the academy, the probationary period and the scrutiny, but you also have to justify yourself every step of the way on the witness stand. If any conduct in the future threatens your credibility or witness potential, then you are fired. Its clearly not easy.
As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.
If you need examples of the rigorous training, then go to youtube and there are many videos of actual academies. It is much much easier to be thrown out of these academies then a regular military basic training. The standards of conduct and performance are much higher.
The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious.
The stop you are describing is a "Terry stop" and has been argued in the Supreme Court. The police have a right to conduct such stops. I know "it sucks" to be on the receiving end, but you have to realize these stops keep us all safer and the community free of crime. Lets say there was a stranger loitering outside of your home for an extended period of time without any obvious reason. Wouldnt it be reasonable for the police to stop and question that individual or would you rather the individual just keep loitering outside your home without anyone questioning their presence?
The military is unlike any law enforcement agency. Almost anyone who meets some basic criteria can enlist in the military whereas very few ever make it to become police officers. The police academy is at least as rigorous or more rigorous then any boot camp in the military. When you get through the basic training in the military, then your job is relatively secure. Even if you screw up a few times or your commander thinks less of you then you can continue on in the military. However, on any police force they will monitor you closely for at least 3 years. Any screw ups or if the Chief doesnt think your a good fit then your out the door before the probationary period expires. During the first 2-3 years on the job, you can expect there to be at least monthly, if not weekly, meetings critiquing your performance and they will watch your every move. After the 2-3 year probationary period, it doesnt end there. You are constantly held to a higher standard and every action is scrutinized. Unlike the military, you need to be able to justify whatever you do in a court of law. Every officer eventually ends up on the witness stand being questioned by a defense attorney with the whole world watching. So not only do you have to get through the selection process, make it through the academy, the probationary period and the scrutiny, but you also have to justify yourself every step of the way on the witness stand. If any conduct in the future threatens your credibility or witness potential, then you are fired. Its clearly not easy.
As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.
If you need examples of the rigorous training, then go to youtube and there are many videos of actual academies. It is much much easier to be thrown out of these academies then a regular military basic training. The standards of conduct and performance are much higher.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
"The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious. "
I see... so making a hotel reservation with a well known 3-4 star national chain on Orbitz at a hotel one mile from the LAX Airport, and then parking in their lot in a rental car, and turning on the dome light to wrap up my GPS cord and toss it into my briefcase is sufficient "probable cause" to conduct a felony stop? No acceptance of my offer to show my ID, my boarding pass, my hotel reservation letter, or anything? Just "on the ground, handcuffed, head banged against the door of the car, a search of my private papers, my phone, etc.". This when I am a clean cut military pilot with a uniform, helmet, DOD Identification, and all of my things in order.
And you defend this sort of behaviour?
And you are a cop?
Uhh.... Yes, this is *precisely* why it's "Us" v/s "You":
Nobody but a cop would make any excuses for this sort of industrialized civil rights violation. There is a special name for a place where the Police make the rules. It's called a "Police State". I entered one that night and I no longer recognized where I was.
Listen to the excuses: "It's fighting the war on drugs", "fighting the war on prostitution"... the WAR... the end justifies the means I guess... after all it's a war. The language defines the attitude: "civilians"... "fighting the war:"... fighting the enemy... who is us.
I was never treated like the "enemy" before. And you were not cause for any alarm by this honest citizen. But for the rest of my life you sure are the enemy now, not in a way where I wish you any harm, but just in a way that makes me want to RUN AWAY, which is the reason this thread on the forum started. Why do people run from the police? It's because they are TERRIFIED. Yes, some are probably bad folks... but some, like me, have just been abused and are truly frightened. I can see now why they run of they think they can get away.
In contrast: In my town, if I seemed out of place at 10:00 PM, my local cops would have come up, rolled down the window, and asked if I was OK, lost, needed assistance, etc.. to engage me in conversation to determine if I was a good guy or a bad guy. That's OK... and would meet the law enforcement objective while not causing someone like me to become the "enemy". I'd have smiled, offered to show my ID and airline ticket and hotel reservation, and that would have been the end of it. I'd have tossed them one of my unit coins with a thanks and been on my way.
And this disparity in the way things are done is, sir, the reason I want nothing to do with LEO's and all I can think about when I am around them is leaving. Thank GOD I did not have my SAA in my suitcase being transported home. although I am certain it would have been perfectly legal, I am equally certain that I would have been tossed into jail for having it, after being stopped and held with a loaded weapon aimed at me for "probable cause" for my "crime" of being a traveler at a major airport.
As for police academy training, I suggest that you go down to Coronado sometime and see how the SEAL's train. Saying that it's harder to get onto and stay on a local police force is harder than being selected for SEAL training is absolutely ridiculous.
Sorry, Officer: I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm sure you're a stand up guy at home, but might also be a guy who would toss my car and throw me in jail if you had the least chance to do so. Maybe not...probably not in fact, but I cannot take that chance. You want to fight a war? Sign up with your recruiter for a real one. I did.
As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.
I'm 53, I run, can outfight the kids, and when people call me "Captain" they mean it. The only thing that would gain me more respect would be to be called "Chief", and if you know anything about the Navy you'll get it.
Smile, it's all OK... I'm here discuss to learn from each other.
Willie
.
I see... so making a hotel reservation with a well known 3-4 star national chain on Orbitz at a hotel one mile from the LAX Airport, and then parking in their lot in a rental car, and turning on the dome light to wrap up my GPS cord and toss it into my briefcase is sufficient "probable cause" to conduct a felony stop? No acceptance of my offer to show my ID, my boarding pass, my hotel reservation letter, or anything? Just "on the ground, handcuffed, head banged against the door of the car, a search of my private papers, my phone, etc.". This when I am a clean cut military pilot with a uniform, helmet, DOD Identification, and all of my things in order.
And you defend this sort of behaviour?
And you are a cop?
Uhh.... Yes, this is *precisely* why it's "Us" v/s "You":
Nobody but a cop would make any excuses for this sort of industrialized civil rights violation. There is a special name for a place where the Police make the rules. It's called a "Police State". I entered one that night and I no longer recognized where I was.
Listen to the excuses: "It's fighting the war on drugs", "fighting the war on prostitution"... the WAR... the end justifies the means I guess... after all it's a war. The language defines the attitude: "civilians"... "fighting the war:"... fighting the enemy... who is us.
I was never treated like the "enemy" before. And you were not cause for any alarm by this honest citizen. But for the rest of my life you sure are the enemy now, not in a way where I wish you any harm, but just in a way that makes me want to RUN AWAY, which is the reason this thread on the forum started. Why do people run from the police? It's because they are TERRIFIED. Yes, some are probably bad folks... but some, like me, have just been abused and are truly frightened. I can see now why they run of they think they can get away.
In contrast: In my town, if I seemed out of place at 10:00 PM, my local cops would have come up, rolled down the window, and asked if I was OK, lost, needed assistance, etc.. to engage me in conversation to determine if I was a good guy or a bad guy. That's OK... and would meet the law enforcement objective while not causing someone like me to become the "enemy". I'd have smiled, offered to show my ID and airline ticket and hotel reservation, and that would have been the end of it. I'd have tossed them one of my unit coins with a thanks and been on my way.
And this disparity in the way things are done is, sir, the reason I want nothing to do with LEO's and all I can think about when I am around them is leaving. Thank GOD I did not have my SAA in my suitcase being transported home. although I am certain it would have been perfectly legal, I am equally certain that I would have been tossed into jail for having it, after being stopped and held with a loaded weapon aimed at me for "probable cause" for my "crime" of being a traveler at a major airport.
As for police academy training, I suggest that you go down to Coronado sometime and see how the SEAL's train. Saying that it's harder to get onto and stay on a local police force is harder than being selected for SEAL training is absolutely ridiculous.
Sorry, Officer: I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm sure you're a stand up guy at home, but might also be a guy who would toss my car and throw me in jail if you had the least chance to do so. Maybe not...probably not in fact, but I cannot take that chance. You want to fight a war? Sign up with your recruiter for a real one. I did.
As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.
I'm 53, I run, can outfight the kids, and when people call me "Captain" they mean it. The only thing that would gain me more respect would be to be called "Chief", and if you know anything about the Navy you'll get it.
Smile, it's all OK... I'm here discuss to learn from each other.
Willie
.
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