El Monte and Alabama excessive force incidents and End of Chase Syndrome

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Quote"This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard."

I meant no offense to you personally, but i cannot blame these parents for having concerns. Other groups previously considered "kid friendly" are now considered less so: teachers, priests, kindly old folks in the neighborhood, etc. It just seems like there has been a great deal of change since "Officer Friendly" visited my elementary school back in the mid 1970's.

It makes me glad i just have cats & not kids.
 
Now you are nitpicking. My point is that when I am working I am required to perform my sworn duties to protect and serve. A ccw is under no such duty.

There are indeed segments of the society that want to tear down traditional values, Thankfully a majority of citizens don't

The reason for the decline in regard for the Police is the general decline of society. The bad actors among law enforcement are a TINY percentage of Coppers, not nearly enough to justify the concept of telling kids Cops aren't the good guys.
 
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I don't think traditional values and police militarization go together. Kids, friends neices and nephews I teach, if they are of age to be polite to police officers, Provide ID if asked but do not answer any questions, do not consent to any search and do not invite police into their homes.

Young children should be taught to seek any authority figure if they are lost or in need of any help.
 
You misunderstand me I believe. I am not referring to the small number of bad actors, but rather the general rapport that LE has in the community.
It is not the misdeeds of the rouges that is causing the problem, it is the increasing "police state" style tactics that are being used, and the continuing us vs. them attitude that officers display.


The reason for the decline in regard for the Police is the general decline of society. The bad actors among law enforcement are a TINY percentage of Coppers, not nearly enough to justify the concept of telling kids Cops aren't the good guys.
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Let me give you an example, Both my children are now adults, They were raised around the belief that uniformed personnel, Including police, firefighters, paramedics, are the good guys. I worked as a ALS/EMT for a good portion of their childhood. Neither of them has ever had any legal "problems" During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display. It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment. This greatly influenced their view of LE in general. My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.

My point is this, you do not have to "tell" children something for them to draw their own conclusions from experience. There is no doubt in my mind that they will probably not be as willing to portray LE as the good guys as I was. I will postulate that what you refer to as the "general decline of society" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
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Dust Monkey said:
The militant attitude that is all consuming in today’s LE is scary. Police should not act like soldiers. Soldiers are trained to kill, period. They are trained to seek out an enemy and kill. They have that mindset instilled during basic training and advanced training. In police schools across the country, that same mindset is being taught. And this is where the two jobs, military and police, clash. A police officers job is not to kill an enemy. It is to prevent crime and arrest those who are a danger to the populace, and to do that while respecting established laws and the civil rights of the population, that also includes the civil rights of the suspect/criminal.
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Wondering if you have any evidence to support the emboldened statement? I've been to many "police schools" across the US and have never seen such a "mindset" being taught.

Dust Monkey said:
More training in civil rights is needed in today’s LE schools.
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As a matter of fact today's' "LE schools" (btw do you mean police academies?) have about ten times more curriculum on civil rights than they did about 25 years ago.
 
As a matter of fact today's' "LE schools" (btw do you mean police academies?) have about ten times more curriculum on civil rights than they did about 25 years ago.
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Well, if so. Why the 2 incidents that are at the root of this thread. The El Monte Officer is, IMO, from the video guilty of assault and violation of civil rights. So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this, yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
 
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Well, if so. Why the 2 incidents that are at the root of this thread. The El Monte Officer is, IMO, from the video guilty of assault and violation of civil rights. So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
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He is not guilty until a court says so.

Maybe it is not more incidents but more incidents that find their way into the public view.
 
So explain to me why we have way to(o) many incidents like this yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
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It's a little like when some moron snaps using an EBR or AK. The truth is it's actually very, very rare. If you look at the statistics, and consider the massive population base that the numbers are drawn from, you see that the actual number of incidents is microscopically low.

But, it's so horrendous that when it does happen, that it is publicized disproportionately and leaves us with the impression that it incidents like it are more commonplace than they are.

Summing up, police abuse does happen, it's always inexcusable, but much more rare than we might think.
 
I am pretty sure that for every video we see there are half a dozen or more we dont see and will never know about. I will search for some stats, I remember a map showing the wrong address no knocks. Hint, there are a lot of them.
 
Wondering if you have any evidence to support the emboldened statement?
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While it may be possible that Dust Monkey will provide you with empirical data, I will address your question with another question for you to ponder.

Given the incontrovertible evidence that is available from direct observation of law enforcement tactics in the form of SRT teams, No knock paramilitary operations, the adaptation by many officers of variations of BDU's as standard uniforms, are you suggesting that the officers are taking it upon themselves to become more "militarized" ? Or that this mindset is not a part of the curriculum at all ? If not, please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.




He is not guilty until a court says so.
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He's "street guilty".
 
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During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display.
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I am sure if they are doing CONSTITUTIONAL locker searchs they had some reason other than contributing to the "militarized Police state" you keep bringing up.

Why should your daughter's feelings matter? Do the teachers ask how does she feel about homework?

It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment.
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It is a common practice for good reason, teens hanging around doing nothing is RS for a Terry stop. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

I would expect the "stitches for snitches" arguement on a gangsta' rap forum not here. What is "creepy" or harassing about getting intel from community members about what's going on?

My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.
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I harken back to previous threads and think it is ludicrous to play street lawyer. Although, the recent SC decision would embolden such folly. However, as I have said before the harder you make a LEO work the harder a LEO will work. I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"

The militant attitude that is all consuming in today’s LE is scary. Police should not act like soldiers. Soldiers are trained to kill, period. They are trained to seek out an enemy and kill. They have that mindset instilled during basic training and advanced training
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Funny, I know scores of LEOs and I haven't met any that have a "militant attitude" I see professional attitudes, I see sarcastic attitudes I see "I don't care" attitudes. But, mostly I see regular guys and ladies doing a job that they believe in.

Kids, friends neices and nephews I teach, if they are of age to be polite to police officers, Provide ID if asked but do not answer any questions, do not consent to any search and do not invite police into their homes.
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Good idea inculcate them in not cooperating with the Police, because all the Police want to do is interrupt the flow of your day for no reason other than he is bored and wants to violate someones rights so it may as well be you.

I guess today when I was chasing the armed robber the people I asked if they saw the offender running should have politely provided me their ID and not assisted me in attempting to judge whether to arrest a violent offender.
 
So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this, yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
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Over the course of a year Police have hundreds of thousands citizen interactions with a insignificant percentage being problematic.

Of course if you live in the fantasy world of even one incident is too many then I who live in the world where excrement happens cannot speak your language.

I do not excuse willful unlawful behavior, but, I will not sanction someone for doing their job in good faith who makes a mistake.
 
Quote:
During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display.
I am sure if they are doing CONSTITUTIONAL locker searchs they had some reason other than contributing to the "militarized Police state" you keep bringing up.

Why should your daughter's feelings matter? Do the teachers ask how does she feel about homework?

Quote:
It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment.
It is a common practice for good reason, teens hanging around doing nothing is RS for a Terry stop. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

I would expect the "stitches for snitches" arguement on a gangsta' rap forum not here. What is "creepy" or harassing about getting intel from community members about what's going on?

Quote:
My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.
I harken back to previous threads and think it is ludicrous to play street lawyer. Although, the recent SC decision would embolden such folly. However, as I have said before the harder you make a LEO work the harder a LEO will work. I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"
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Respectfully friend,

Maybe it was a long day for you, maybe I was not clear in my writing, but go back and read that post in it's entire context, without parsing, I cannot believe that the "moral of the story" did not register. :confused:
 
Given the incontrovertible evidence that is available from direct observation of law enforcement tactics in the form of SRT teams, No knock paramilitary operations, the adaptation by many officers of variations of BDU's as standard uniforms, are you suggesting that the officers are taking it upon themselves to become more "militarized" ? Or that this mindset is not a part of the curriculum at all ? If not, please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.
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Police department are Paramilitary organizations, it says it right in my General orders.

No knock warrant service is an acceptable and legal practice with reasoned justification. If you don't like it work to change the laws of the land.

What is wrong with BDU type uniforms----much more comfy and in my opinion more suitable for field wear, rather than dress pants

please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.
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COPS and society good
Offenders bad
I think somewhere around the first day of the academy
 
I cannot believe that the "moral of the story" did not register.
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enlighten me.
I answered the points that I had the most heartburn over.

My point is this, you do not have to "tell" children something for them to draw their own conclusions from experience. There is no doubt in my mind that they will probably not be as willing to portray LE as the good guys as I was. I will postulate that what you refer to as the "general decline of society" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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No don't tell them anything. Explain the errors of their actions and perceptions using the explanations I proffered above.
 
Wagonman, I am regretful to state that you have lost my respect as a fellow citizen... You are just a cop not a citizen! You type the words of the over zealous police tactics that most of us law abiding americans rightfully deem UNCONSTITUTIONAL and against the people you claim to protect. Ask to search my ride or home and you will be met with a slammed door in your face! If you ain't got enuff on me to arrest me and thus get free reighn to search than you obviously are grabbing at straws and fishing in a bathtub! As a child I was told the cops were out to protect me... as a teen they lied to me and my parents and my pop apologized to me for wrongly teaching me this... I raised my son and daughter to avoid police contact at all cost! In fact they have seen me try to provide cases for them to persue only to have them fumble the ball so now they, as I, realize if it was major enuff of a crime to dial 911it is best to handle it yourself and make sure justice is dealt!

We didn't say snitches get stitches... I was raised amongst some folks that taught "Snitches are a dieing breed..."
sad day when folks are willing to tell a cop they have little respect for them as they were trained!
Brent
 
I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"
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If you were, in fact, bluffing, then I assume you had no PC or RS. Are you saying you would then arrest someone in order to facilitate an unwarranted, illegal search? If I misunderstood, set me straight.
 
I don't bluff which is why I put bluff in quotation marks. If I have enough PC which is the traffic violation that engendered the stop I am able to make a physical arrest for said traffic violation and impound said car and inventory the contents.

I do not engage in the practice of making false arrests, and would not tolerate the practice by any LEO I work with. But, I will use every tool at my disposal to do my job.
 
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