Not true for everyone sky. I know plenty of healthy, well rounded, mentally stable and successful people who will tell you otherwise. Whatever you feel, it is normal. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's normal to feel elation after surviving a gunfight. Also, remorse, revulsion and many other emotions. But, not everyone will feel them. That doesn't mean they are sociopathic or mentally unbalanced. So much of the idea that we should feel remorse comes from the mechanics of socialization: media, church, family, culture, etc. In our society, we are told "you should feel remorse when you kill someone." That is based on our religious and cultural values. What can happen is when you truly feel elation, you think there is something wrong with you when in reality what you are feeling is normal. There is nothing wrong with not feeling remorse for killing someone or feeling it. They are both normal and acceptable.
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Egomaniacal instructors
- Thread starter Covert Mission
- Start date
TexasSeaRay
New member
It's been said that the remorseless, badass type people are actually showing the signs of an anti-social personality disorder, a mental illness.
Surely a current trainer and former swat person who proudly says that he shotgunned a guy to death, then went home, drank a Corona and slept like a baby fits into that mold.
It's just not normal or emotionally healthy to have 'no remorse' for ending a life...any life.
Have to respectfully disagree.
Jeff
DonR101395
New member
It's been said that the remorseless, badass type people are actually showing the signs of an anti-social personality disorder, a mental illness.
Surely a current trainer and former swat person who proudly says that he shotgunned a guy to death, then went home, drank a Corona and slept like a baby fits into that mold.
It's just not normal or emotionally healthy to have 'no remorse' for ending a life...any life. Self defense, survival, kill or be killed merely mitigates the issues that we combat veterans live with.
One opinion, I also would have to disagree with.
I think that the regard for human life most of us have is really due to our socialization into a modern society.
Think about how many thousands of years our ancestors HAD to kill other humans to keep their food, lives, families, and homes/borders.
The current social prohibitions we have here in the Western Hemisphere are pretty incongruous with our history as a species. And, I would argue that they're incongruous with our basic nature. Ever seen a baby get mad at another baby? They come out swinging because we have a basic instinct to keep what's ours and defend ourselves with force.
However, in the opinion of one of my friends from Fort Benning, one of the most difficult things to make new recruits understand is that they are there to possibly kill someone.
Now, I'm not discounting that a great number of our fellow citizens aren't reprogrammed to believe a new set of values. And, I'm not discounting that Skyguy doesn't genuinely feel that remorse should be a part of being normal.
But, to say that remorse is the appropriate response to the act of killing someone for any human seems to ignore a lot of history and a lot of basic human instinct that is triggered by self-defense.
While guilt may be very real to some, it doesn't have to be the most valid response for everyone. Certainly, I wouldn't rubber stamp anyone as being callous or oversensitive for either. I'm more amazed that our society can spawn people who can "shotgun someone to death, go home, drink a corona, and sleep like a baby" and another who sobs inconsolably because someone on TV got a free house built for them in 7 days.
Think about how many thousands of years our ancestors HAD to kill other humans to keep their food, lives, families, and homes/borders.
The current social prohibitions we have here in the Western Hemisphere are pretty incongruous with our history as a species. And, I would argue that they're incongruous with our basic nature. Ever seen a baby get mad at another baby? They come out swinging because we have a basic instinct to keep what's ours and defend ourselves with force.
However, in the opinion of one of my friends from Fort Benning, one of the most difficult things to make new recruits understand is that they are there to possibly kill someone.
Now, I'm not discounting that a great number of our fellow citizens aren't reprogrammed to believe a new set of values. And, I'm not discounting that Skyguy doesn't genuinely feel that remorse should be a part of being normal.
But, to say that remorse is the appropriate response to the act of killing someone for any human seems to ignore a lot of history and a lot of basic human instinct that is triggered by self-defense.
While guilt may be very real to some, it doesn't have to be the most valid response for everyone. Certainly, I wouldn't rubber stamp anyone as being callous or oversensitive for either. I'm more amazed that our society can spawn people who can "shotgun someone to death, go home, drink a corona, and sleep like a baby" and another who sobs inconsolably because someone on TV got a free house built for them in 7 days.
Covert Mission
New member
I've never had to shoot or kill anyone, I'm glad to say. But, anyone who carries CCW or is LE should have done some mental preparation for that possible event.
I have a very good friend who is about to retire from LE, after 30+
years with LA County SO. He's a homicide detective for over 15 years, so he's familiar with all sides of death. When he was in patrol 20 years ago, he rolled to an armed robbery at a Stop 'n Rob, and as he pulled up the BG was running out the door and started dumping rounds at him. My pal shot better, and dropped him with his Python.
He's not a touchy feely guy by any means, nor is he a super macho. Just a thoughtful, conservative cop, good family man, good friend. He said to me once, about the shooting: "You know, I think about it a few times a week. I don't feel bad about killing him...in fact, I had no choice and he was trying to kill me. But I think about it all the time."
It seems to me that's how I'd feel (I hope). I'd think about it, know I'd done the right thing, had no choice, but wouldn't brag about it, I hope. Better him than me.
In reading some of Col. Dave Grossman's writing on killing ( http://www.killology.com/ ) the military has spent a lot of effort to counteract the natural human aversion to killing, in order to train better soldiers. IIRC, the # of shots fired vs. enemy casualties in WWII was a high ratio compared to VietNam and now, as we've figured out how to train people to kill more readily. Interesting topic.
I have a very good friend who is about to retire from LE, after 30+
years with LA County SO. He's a homicide detective for over 15 years, so he's familiar with all sides of death. When he was in patrol 20 years ago, he rolled to an armed robbery at a Stop 'n Rob, and as he pulled up the BG was running out the door and started dumping rounds at him. My pal shot better, and dropped him with his Python.
He's not a touchy feely guy by any means, nor is he a super macho. Just a thoughtful, conservative cop, good family man, good friend. He said to me once, about the shooting: "You know, I think about it a few times a week. I don't feel bad about killing him...in fact, I had no choice and he was trying to kill me. But I think about it all the time."
It seems to me that's how I'd feel (I hope). I'd think about it, know I'd done the right thing, had no choice, but wouldn't brag about it, I hope. Better him than me.
In reading some of Col. Dave Grossman's writing on killing ( http://www.killology.com/ ) the military has spent a lot of effort to counteract the natural human aversion to killing, in order to train better soldiers. IIRC, the # of shots fired vs. enemy casualties in WWII was a high ratio compared to VietNam and now, as we've figured out how to train people to kill more readily. Interesting topic.
Having read this far into this thread, I have to say that I've seen more over-sized egos in the three previous pages than I've seen among the instructors I have trained with.
All good instructors will have a "healthy" ego. And yes, I've had a couple that struck me as being a little "over the top." But I never got the sense that they were excessively enthralled with themselves because of their training/LEO/military experience....but more had the feeling that they were just wired that way.
Let me quickly add that even those who seemed to be "overly egotistical" (and I am certainly not qualified to make that assessment, so I'll re-phrase to say "Those who seemed to have personalities that were different from mine") had a lot of good stuff to teach. If you go to a class worried about egos, or worried about how many BG's the instructor has shot, you may want to re-examine your agenda and your criteria.
I am not at all concerned with an instructor's military experience, and care little about LEO experience unless it is pertinent to the topics being taught (such as situational awareness). I am far more concerned with two things: Can he perform, and can he teach ? If the answer to either is "No," then I may have made a poor choice.
A little research prior to enrolling, and then showing up with an open mind, will go a long way to making sure that your training experience is a good one. Most people never even enroll in a class (other than, perhaps their CCW class), and seem satisfied to get their "training" at forums such as this one. I'm one of those weird people who think that these forums are great, but are no substitute for training
All good instructors will have a "healthy" ego. And yes, I've had a couple that struck me as being a little "over the top." But I never got the sense that they were excessively enthralled with themselves because of their training/LEO/military experience....but more had the feeling that they were just wired that way.
Let me quickly add that even those who seemed to be "overly egotistical" (and I am certainly not qualified to make that assessment, so I'll re-phrase to say "Those who seemed to have personalities that were different from mine") had a lot of good stuff to teach. If you go to a class worried about egos, or worried about how many BG's the instructor has shot, you may want to re-examine your agenda and your criteria.
I am not at all concerned with an instructor's military experience, and care little about LEO experience unless it is pertinent to the topics being taught (such as situational awareness). I am far more concerned with two things: Can he perform, and can he teach ? If the answer to either is "No," then I may have made a poor choice.
A little research prior to enrolling, and then showing up with an open mind, will go a long way to making sure that your training experience is a good one. Most people never even enroll in a class (other than, perhaps their CCW class), and seem satisfied to get their "training" at forums such as this one. I'm one of those weird people who think that these forums are great, but are no substitute for training
It's just not normal or emotionally healthy to have 'no remorse' for ending a life...any life. Self defense, survival, kill or be killed merely mitigates the issues that we combat veterans live with.
I've known more than a few people who were combat vets or had otherwise killed in the line of duty. The one that was the most torn up about it was also the most emotionally unstable of the bunch.
Most vets I've talked to or read interviews of get torn up about their comrades who were killed or wounded, or the civilians who get caught in the crossfire. Enemy casualties fall in the category of "it was him or me, and I'm glad it was him."
Rob Pincus
New member
Having read this far into this thread, I have to say that I've seen more over-sized egos in the three previous pages than I've seen among the instructors I have trained with.
Well said.... as was the rest of your post, Dawg....
Interesting, macho-man, testosterone laced, hearsay responses so far.
Problem is....the responses have the same credibility as a man telling someone what it's like to have a baby; all hearsay, no experience. You can watch movies and tv, read books, talk to mothers, even pretend/train at giving birth....but it's just not the same as doing it.
I'll say it again so we don't lose track of the whole point of this thread: 'egomaniacal instructors'.
"I had a current trainer and former swat person say he shotgunned a guy to death, went home, drank a Corona and slept like a baby."
Some wires are crossed there and religion ain't gonna make it better.
.
Problem is....the responses have the same credibility as a man telling someone what it's like to have a baby; all hearsay, no experience. You can watch movies and tv, read books, talk to mothers, even pretend/train at giving birth....but it's just not the same as doing it.
I'll say it again so we don't lose track of the whole point of this thread: 'egomaniacal instructors'.
"I had a current trainer and former swat person say he shotgunned a guy to death, went home, drank a Corona and slept like a baby."
Some wires are crossed there and religion ain't gonna make it better.
.
No I think it is you who think you have a lock on what all men who make battle should feel. But as many who have also been there and done that have said, that is an incorrect view.
I never felt any guilt for what I have done and if CENTCOM rule 1A would have allowed I would have had beer afterward.
I never felt any guilt for what I have done and if CENTCOM rule 1A would have allowed I would have had beer afterward.
ok, let me give you the condensed version.
No two people will come away from the experience with the exact same response to it.
Who is to say what the appropriate response is for that person?
As for egomaniacal instructors, generally the ones who don't have anything to prove and work harder at being teachers than icons are the ones I get the most from, but I don't need a father figure.
No two people will come away from the experience with the exact same response to it.
Who is to say what the appropriate response is for that person?
As for egomaniacal instructors, generally the ones who don't have anything to prove and work harder at being teachers than icons are the ones I get the most from, but I don't need a father figure.
Interesting, macho-man, testosterone laced, hearsay responses so far.
Problem is....the responses have the same credibility as a man telling someone what it's like to have a baby; all hearsay, no experience. You can watch movies and tv, read books, talk to mothers, even pretend/train at giving birth....but it's just not the same as doing it.
I'll say it again so we don't lose track of the whole point of this thread: 'egomaniacal instructors'.
"I had a current trainer and former swat person say he shotgunned a guy to death, went home, drank a Corona and slept like a baby."
Some wires are crossed there and religion ain't gonna make it better.
.
I think the problem with your anecdote is linking ego with someone not feeling remorse for taking a life. These are almost entirely unrelated topics. I do think it is a window into your view of the world though.
The other disconcerting issue is that you threw this quote out and gave no context. Could you be right in the one case you were physically present? Yes. Is anyone that contests your assertion wrong? I don't think so.
TexasSeaRay
New member
Most vets I've talked to or read interviews of get torn up about their comrades who were killed or wounded, or the civilians who get caught in the crossfire. Enemy casualties fall in the category of "it was him or me, and I'm glad it was him."
+1
The older I get, I find myself seeing and hearing things that remind me of buddies I lost. And even all these years later, it still hurts.
As for as the guys who were on the other side and are no longer, I don't think about them much at all.
But I do get tired of unmarried marriage counselors insisting that if you don't break down and cry or have nightmares or need weekly shrink sesssions for having done your job and your duty, you're a sociopath or testosterone filled or emotionally deficient.
I don't think that about the different soldiers, sailors and airmen that saved my life during various operations, and they don't think that about me or my buddies who did likewise.
And theirs is the only opinion I really give a hoot about.
Jeff