Egomaniacal instructors
- Thread starter Covert Mission
- Start date
Egomaniacal probably isn't the best word to describe those whom you are talking about. Condescending or rude perhaps. One can be an egomaniac or even an egotist without being rude or condescending to students or others. To achieve a high level of success requires a strong ego and sense of self-confidence. It is a fine line between confidence and arrogance and it usually isn't the possessor who decides what side of the line he falls on. That doesn't excuse rude behavior however.
In my experience, it is former LE and Military who are the worst. They tend to teach like they are teaching a class of recruits. That is precisely the reason our company got the contract to teach at Bass Pro Shops. They didn't want that type of atmosphere.
Oddly enough, the best shooters in the world usually put on the best classes (whether they have the fanciest facility or not) and can outshoot all of the so called "tactical" instructors.
The type of incidents you describe are just plain poor manners and lack of professionalism.
In my experience, it is former LE and Military who are the worst. They tend to teach like they are teaching a class of recruits. That is precisely the reason our company got the contract to teach at Bass Pro Shops. They didn't want that type of atmosphere.
Oddly enough, the best shooters in the world usually put on the best classes (whether they have the fanciest facility or not) and can outshoot all of the so called "tactical" instructors.
The type of incidents you describe are just plain poor manners and lack of professionalism.
How about this thought. Those who know something can teach it. Those who don't know and can't teach yell at their students for not learning.
FWIW, I believe ex-military instructors are dangerous, whether teaching police or civilian firearms classes. Bless the military, and I support our troops, but they acquire a "them and us" mindset, where everyone not in "our" uniform is a target to be shot. If they can't leave that behind, their ideas and their training will be very bad for a cop or an armed civilian.
Jim
FWIW, I believe ex-military instructors are dangerous, whether teaching police or civilian firearms classes. Bless the military, and I support our troops, but they acquire a "them and us" mindset, where everyone not in "our" uniform is a target to be shot. If they can't leave that behind, their ideas and their training will be very bad for a cop or an armed civilian.
Jim
Well, having met some of the 'big name' IPSC shooters/celebrities at Second Chance, only two(other than Dick Davis) stand out as the least bit friendly or classy. Ayoob is one. Miculek the other. Not one of the rest of them would even talk to the other shooters.
Mr. Ayoob sat down with myself and my buddy one afternoon and attempted to start a conversation. We were kind of shocked/awed and didn't say a word. My much belated apologies to Mr. Ayoob.
The next year, my buddy beat Mr. Miculek in a man on man shoot off(long before he set the records). Mr. Miculek had his hand out in congratulations before my buddy knew he had won.
"...acquire a "them and us" mindset..." So do cops. Mind you, up here at least, most cops can't shoot worth beans. Most don't shoot for recreation and they don't want to.
Teaching anything technical requires a great deal of patience. It's very easy to forget that your students don't know the terminology or that they're there to learn it. Any instructor who yells and hollers shouldn't be teaching anybody, anything. Especially to neophytes.
Mr. Ayoob sat down with myself and my buddy one afternoon and attempted to start a conversation. We were kind of shocked/awed and didn't say a word. My much belated apologies to Mr. Ayoob.
The next year, my buddy beat Mr. Miculek in a man on man shoot off(long before he set the records). Mr. Miculek had his hand out in congratulations before my buddy knew he had won.
"...acquire a "them and us" mindset..." So do cops. Mind you, up here at least, most cops can't shoot worth beans. Most don't shoot for recreation and they don't want to.
Teaching anything technical requires a great deal of patience. It's very easy to forget that your students don't know the terminology or that they're there to learn it. Any instructor who yells and hollers shouldn't be teaching anybody, anything. Especially to neophytes.
Having shot with them for years, I'd have to disagree. Most of them are friendly and classsy. Leatham, Enos, Shaw, Jarrett, McCormick, Koenig, Burner, Miculek are all first class individuals. Can't say the same for some of the new shooters and not for some of the "Tactical" crowd either.
oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
Was this before or after the match? If it was before, I don't blame them at all. Competitors have all types of different ways of getting ready to shoot and very few of them involve shooting the breeze with random folks. Hell, a lot of them do a full-match visualization type thing where they may as well be on another planet.
If you guys think practical pistol folks are touchy, you should go to an olympic smallbore match sometime and try to start conversations. You will be cursed out in many languages. The same goes for even approaching another competitor's gear. It took them a damn long time to get everything just how they want it and if you look like you are going to touch something they will not be happy. That's just the way it is.
Would you jabber at Brian Urlacher and fondle his equipment before a Bears game when he was trying to get ready?
I would not, and I would not have a problem with him launching you into the stands if you tried to.
Live with it. These guys are serious about their sport.
Covert Mission
New member
Lurper:
I've been to several Steel Challenges at my old home range, and watched the big dogs in action and off the line. Most of the names you mention seemed to be good guys, and have a good reputation for being decent people, and I observed that myself (and the organizers of that event spoke highly of many of those people). I know people who have taken classes with Jarrett, and rave about him. Leatham is purported to be a super nice guy. They must not think they have anything to prove (they don't!), or boast about...their accomplishments speak for themselves. Some of my pals shot the USPSA Nationals this year and had good things to say about many in the "Super Squad."
I should edit my first post in this thread and be more specific, maybe. I know there are many instructors out there who are both good teachers, accomplished professionals and good, decent people (hopefully, you know who you are). I got my BVDs in a bunch recently after hearing some first-hand stories from friends in the business, or students, who have been apalled by the bad behavior and egocentric nonsense by some big names in the tac shooting world. Some of these guys were mil spec-ops or had serious LE careers. Living in the past, maybe? I'm no shrink...don't have a clue sometimes why some people can be such frequent buttheads.
I've been to several Steel Challenges at my old home range, and watched the big dogs in action and off the line. Most of the names you mention seemed to be good guys, and have a good reputation for being decent people, and I observed that myself (and the organizers of that event spoke highly of many of those people). I know people who have taken classes with Jarrett, and rave about him. Leatham is purported to be a super nice guy. They must not think they have anything to prove (they don't!), or boast about...their accomplishments speak for themselves. Some of my pals shot the USPSA Nationals this year and had good things to say about many in the "Super Squad."
I should edit my first post in this thread and be more specific, maybe. I know there are many instructors out there who are both good teachers, accomplished professionals and good, decent people (hopefully, you know who you are). I got my BVDs in a bunch recently after hearing some first-hand stories from friends in the business, or students, who have been apalled by the bad behavior and egocentric nonsense by some big names in the tac shooting world. Some of these guys were mil spec-ops or had serious LE careers. Living in the past, maybe? I'm no shrink...don't have a clue sometimes why some people can be such frequent buttheads.
Many are legends in thier own mind. The guys i knew in the Corps that were the meat eaters were not the cocky dicks with swagger. they taught us that if you are a bad ass you dont need to prove it to any one! When we would come back from an op we would talk about it but not to talk tough but to learn and to blow off some of the steam. When we got back stateside we never talked tough and cocky. We proved to ourselves what we were and did not need to prove it to any one else. We were just good Marines, Nothing more nothing less.
Todd, Rob and Brian are all close friends. I shot with all of the people I mentioned as a member of the Super Squad back when I was shooting. Todd and I used to practice in my backyard. All of the guys I mentioned have strong egos. Of all of them, perhaps myself, John Shaw and J. Michael Plaxco are the most "egotistical" (although I am nowhere near as egotistical as them lol). My passion for what I know borders on evangelicism which some people interpret to mean I am egotistical. I am also known for being blunt and upfront about things which also puts some people off. I constanly tell people (students and others) that "there may not be one way to shoot, but there is a 'best way' ." That puts some people off, but I can support that claim. I learned years ago not to even bother trying to sound modest because no matter what I said, someone always thought I had a big ego. Now I just tell people that up front. I have had students come up to me after a class and say things like " I thought you were full of **it when you were talking about some of that stuff until I saw you shoot". I'll be the first to tell you that I promote myself - if I don't, who will? To some that is egotistical, to me I just speak facts.
Having said all of that though, I am never condescending to students nor do I intimdate them or berate them like some instructors. In fact I have a good reputation as a teacher for women shooters. Behaving like you are god's gift to shooting and belittleing your students is IMHO kinda dumb and it really speaks volumes about the instructor.
Having said all of that though, I am never condescending to students nor do I intimdate them or berate them like some instructors. In fact I have a good reputation as a teacher for women shooters. Behaving like you are god's gift to shooting and belittleing your students is IMHO kinda dumb and it really speaks volumes about the instructor.
I'd attended a clinic put on by Brian Zins and Andy Moody. Brian is the 8 time national BE champion and current record holder. Andy was Brian's coach in the Marine pistol team and is a record holder for (IIRC) rapid fire pistol. He also has a pretty extensive resume in small arms training for the Marines and law enforcement.
Neither of these guys portray the sort of behavior that the OP mentions. They were both friendly and courteous. The clinic is based on the Marine program. Its format provided for a lot of one-on-one consultation on the line. They were working directly w/ shooters who possessed a range of capabilities. Both of them were pretty firm about enforcing certain fundamentals, and would call you on mistakes in the class sessions. But they did this in a way that didn't embarrass anyone.
USMC GRUNT
he has a point! They will never be Marines! That does not make them a reject just have not had the training we have. As for him painting with a broad brush he sure does. If he knew what it was all about he would not talk that way. I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is. I know how the Gunny will act and he will be with me come hell or high water. I would bet my life on it time and time again. That is the guy i want to train from he has been there! Yes Military are different. We have to be.
he has a point! They will never be Marines! That does not make them a reject just have not had the training we have. As for him painting with a broad brush he sure does. If he knew what it was all about he would not talk that way. I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is. I know how the Gunny will act and he will be with me come hell or high water. I would bet my life on it time and time again. That is the guy i want to train from he has been there! Yes Military are different. We have to be.
As far as the IPSC shooters, I can't think of a single master or grandmaster class shooter I've ever had a problem with. All down to earth guys. Todd Jarrett is one of the nicest, most down to earth guys I've ever met, in or out of the shooting sports.
A few of the wannabe's though...
And looking at motivation instead of personality- why would any of the world class shooters display bad attitudes anyway? Most of them sell instruction or equipment. Why discourage potential customers?
A few of the wannabe's though...
And looking at motivation instead of personality- why would any of the world class shooters display bad attitudes anyway? Most of them sell instruction or equipment. Why discourage potential customers?
Actually, I'm an Air Force instructor these days. Hey, somebody's got to show them how to shoot!
But again, when you talk about military instructors, that term "military" encompasses all branches of the military. Does he know that we're not allowed to cuss at all in a class? One of my fellow instructors at work was critiqued by a student because he used the word "crap" in his class when he was talking about "nomenclature, characteristic and all that other crap". It depends on the audience. When it comes to cop or special operator classes, we can be a bit more crude but when it comes to say a base populace class where you have students from other areas such as services or medical and students with higher ranks (so far a 2-star is my highest ranking student) you tone it down.
As far as the "us and them" mentality, that used to be the case years ago during the cold war era. Today when you have to consider non-combatants, rules of engagement and LOAC, our shooters can't develop that mentality. Obviously that poster has either never been in a military class or has been in one so long ago that he's dealing with dated information.
But again, when you talk about military instructors, that term "military" encompasses all branches of the military. Does he know that we're not allowed to cuss at all in a class? One of my fellow instructors at work was critiqued by a student because he used the word "crap" in his class when he was talking about "nomenclature, characteristic and all that other crap". It depends on the audience. When it comes to cop or special operator classes, we can be a bit more crude but when it comes to say a base populace class where you have students from other areas such as services or medical and students with higher ranks (so far a 2-star is my highest ranking student) you tone it down. As far as the "us and them" mentality, that used to be the case years ago during the cold war era. Today when you have to consider non-combatants, rules of engagement and LOAC, our shooters can't develop that mentality. Obviously that poster has either never been in a military class or has been in one so long ago that he's dealing with dated information.
David Armstrong
Moderator
I think the issue may be one of what do you want to learn? If I want to learn combat tactics and techniques, I may look for that well-qualified and experienced combat vet. But if I am wanting to learn the legal issues and tactical problems of concealed carry in the city, Ayoob would probably be the better choice. It is a matter of matching up the instructor with your needs. There are some LSHD egomaniac instructor out there that I don't mind recommending at all to people that are looking for a type of training. But someone looking for a different set of skills I might advise them to stay very far away and find somebody else.
If you want to learn how to fight a war, that is fine. But if you want to learn skills that apply to civilians that's a different story. Very little of what we learn in the military carries over to "combat" as it applies to civilians. As DA pointed out, this is even more important if you want to learn the legal aspect and precedents.
kgpcr wrote:
The point is, that military combat tactics and civilian sport shooters, are two totally different creatures. If you want to learn combat, go with the gunney by all means, but if you want to learn technique ans skill as it pertains to competition shooting, you go to a competition shooter.
Most of the world class competition marksmen are faster, more accurate, and have a superior knowledge of their chosen weapons. There are not many people from ANY profession who can "out shoot" these guys in their environment.
Now stick them in a "combat" environment, and their skills would most likely not count for much, but that does not detract from their superior skill with a firearm when it comes to competition shooting. Not many gunnies would out shoot them on their turf.
The point is, that military combat tactics and civilian sport shooters, are two totally different creatures. If you want to learn combat, go with the gunney by all means, but if you want to learn technique ans skill as it pertains to competition shooting, you go to a competition shooter.
Most of the world class competition marksmen are faster, more accurate, and have a superior knowledge of their chosen weapons. There are not many people from ANY profession who can "out shoot" these guys in their environment.
Now stick them in a "combat" environment, and their skills would most likely not count for much, but that does not detract from their superior skill with a firearm when it comes to competition shooting. Not many gunnies would out shoot them on their turf.
Two totally different things: combat as it applies to the Gunny and combat as it applies to ccw holders. What the Gunny learned in Nam or the big sandbox bears no relevance to what John Q needs. The military and LE communities have always lagged behind the civilan community when it comes to pistolcraft. A pistol is a secondary weapon for the military, the rules of engagement, tactics, technique, equipment and even the battlefield are different. The legal aspect is another aspect of the battlefield for John Q. Being alive is the main objective, being alive and in prison for 30 years is a far distant second even though it's still better than dead.
The sentence should stop there. I always have to laugh when I hear someone say "Rob Leatham might be great on the 'sqaure range' but put him on the street and he aint sh**!" What a crock, as if by some magical power his shooting ability fades if he isn't on the range. I've beat Rob on occasion, but I'd rather face any Gunny anytime than face Rob in a gunfight.