"Earn it."...your citizenship

Rich

ROFLMAO! :D If I was in this for the money, I'd have gone another route many moons ago (as my 16 yr. old Chevy pick up will testify too :D ) But, you're right. Those who do get paid should not get the same credit as some selfless soul that volunteers his time, giving much, and expecting little. But all of those you mentioned should get SOME credit for helping make things work. Me, I volunteer my off days at a Christian Youth Ranch. It's a little selfish in a way since I'm a horse fanatic, and get to keep my hand in wrangling, guiding trail, etc., but it just feels good when I come home, thinking that even one kid out there that gets his life turned around (and we deal with a lot of troubled and problem youth) will be one less that I'll have to see come to a tragic end.
 
Selflessness? Is that what I am hearing?

People doing things for others?

It can't be.. That’s, well, un-American. Just leave it up to the government to help you out. / sarcasms

And Joab, I can't disagree with you more on your comment. No offense dude but, its just so, governmental.

Wayne
 
side note

thinking that even one kid out there that gets his life turned around will be one less that I'll have to see come to a tragic end.

Cap'am (said as I said it in the military).... we have done agreed to two things, and in one night...

Wayne

*quote edited to point out what I wished to quote but I hope didn't change the meaning of the original post.
 
I believe that the best way any of us can pay back a little of what has been given to us is to make sure that the next generation understands the values and beliefs we hold so dear. We have been lucky in this country. Democracy can be lost by one complacent or misguided generation. Whether it is through your own children, or the children of others, the best service you can provide is a bit of insurance in the survival of America.

This is being said by another Navy man who is darned proud of his military service. The service I am most proud of is the service done by my children (and it isn't all military).
 
Military service is a what it says, service. It is to be appreciated by ordinary citizens. What seems to escape discussion, is that there's a lot you can do to forego your natural rights, even if you've served. A serviceman who commits a felony is deprived of a number of rights that would otherwise be recognized. I don't think there's anyone here that really believes that service in the Armed Forces guarantees rights regardless of subsequent behavior.

That's really how the question should be framed: what must someone do to be deprived of rights, rather than to earn them...
 
The moment you institute a voluntary service requirement for citizenship, that service will become increasingly difficult to get into. When the reward is influence (a vote), the people who already have influence will prevent "undesireables" from entering the military.

Currently, you must have at least a GED to enlist. How'd you like it if you enlistment, and entitlement, could only be had with a Ivy League degree?


I think Heinlein is fun, but his ideal society includes excuting people who cut into a line at the store (Time Enough for Love). Actually instituting such ideas is much more problematic than typing them.


I think you earn your rights as a citizen by using them. Considering how few people vote, that might be a good goal to start with.
 
How'd you like it if you enlistment, and entitlement, could only be had with a Ivy League degree?
I don't know about entitlement, but high achievement as a prerequisite for serving in an army (see Republican Rome) actually worked well...it's when the urban slumdwellers came into the picture that all hell broke loose, including civil war...but this may be a digression
 
I don't know about entitlement, but high achievement as a prerequisite for serving in an army (see Republican Rome) actually worked well...it's when the urban slumdwellers came into the picture that all hell broke loose, including civil war...but this may be a digression
I suppose that depends on your definition of "well".

Rome is a poor example of a society, and had many characteristics that would prevent it's rise today, as well as other characteristics that would virtually guarantee that an army would be raised against it.

Restricting service to a landed, educated gentry would simply accelerate a modern "Rome" into oblivion.

When choosing a model for a society, one would do well to avoid models that resulted in collapse.
 
Rome is a poor example of a society
Yes, in today's context it may appear so. OTOH, we can only hope that our society has the longevity of Rome's - over a thousand years.

When choosing a model for a society, one would do well to avoid models that resulted in collapse.
That narrows the field substantially. The only things left are recent, immature forms of government that history will have to judge.

BTW, concepts do not lack value just because they are mentioned in a work of fiction. Ideas stand on their merit, regardless of the venue in which they are presented.
 
JFK had it right with his famous speach, "Ask not what your country can do for you. But, ask what YOU can do for your country."

The only thing I ask of my country is the one thing it seems incapable of doing: Leaving me the hell alone. ;)

If, to follow his list, we would consider "law, LEO, fire, counselor" to be "selfless service" why not Teacher, Doctor, Nurse, Veterinarian, Librarian, Preacher, Garbage Collector, Farmer, Ambulance Driver, Writer, Pilot, Bus Driver, Aerospace Engineer....well, you get the idea. They all contribute significantly.

I put guns in the hands of the citizenry. It's not just a job; it's a Calling. :cool:
 
I can't disagree with you more on your comment. No offense dude but, its just so, governmental.
Actually it was meant to be more nannystatist than just plain governmental

There was a time when young men were expected to join the military especially if college wasn't in their plans.

When was the last time you heard about the Peace Corps, do they even exist anymore?

I grew up in a time when community service was expected, although that sentiment was severely waning at the time.

At 15 I helped my father with his many school related projects from his student camping groups to volunteering summers in his YCC group

Now I have become that American that a lot of you either pity or or despise or at least roll your eyes at

I go to ,work pay my taxes and don't piss off the man, I let school children pass at unmarked crosswalks and little old ladies cut into traffic, I say ma'am to the lady at the burger stand and thank you and have a good day when I get my change back

Then I go home secure in the knowledge that I am a good American and God has saved a small space somewhere in the back.
 
The "OR" was intended to affirmatively indicate those in the Military as having engaged in "selfless service". I appreciate your attempt to diminish your own contribution in that regard, but I just can't let that go. Accepting a position where you are under another's control 24/7 and paid a "wage" fixed not by the market but by the Government is the very definition of "service".

I thank you for yours.

Rich,

As always, you are gracious beyond what I deserve, but I do appreciate your kindness. Further, you are correct: the Navy salary I earned during in the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s was well below market-norms and, obviously, every active service person is under continuous jurisdiction (although this sounds a LOT more draconian than, in fact, it is). However, as you indicate, that is precisely why it is SERVICE to our nation and its citizens.

I want to briefly amplify the points I tried to make in my previous post. A complex and multidimensional society requires a balance of service. Plainly, a nation composed of entirely engineers, or physicians, or teachers (etc.) simply could not function. Now, I believe many citizen provide service to America, I am grateful to all of them, and (IMHO) they should be proud of their contribution(s). I do feel that military service stands somewhat apart, for the reasons you suggest as well as a few others (such as protracted time away from home – for that matter, frequently removed from any civilization – sometime brutal living conditions, real risks, and so forth). However, I cannot belittle the service of the EMS technician, the police officer, and many others who devote their lives to the betterment of our citizenry (even if they have more-reasonable incomes and the right to quit).

I also wanted to re-emphasize another point. IMHO, service is a privilege, because – in the end – it gives the individual a sense of pride, of self-respect, and of contributing to important things larger than himself, thus elevating his entire life. Everyone should want to serve and everyone should have the honor of service. This specifically includes those with physical and mental challenges. As you may recall from many of my previous TFL posts, I am economically-oriented, frequently viewing public policy issues though a prism of the costs imposed (taxes, insurance payments, etc.) on society. However, this is an area where I fell we should collectively spend; the teenager with a real physical handicap or the adult who is cognitively challenges still deserve the right to serve. Obviously, service opportunities for these individuals will have to be tailored with care, but they, too, should have the privilege of looking back and knowing that they made a contribution and a difference.

Therefore, with all this said, I believe in “universal, voluntarily” service. Universal, because it should be ubiquitous, with everyone contributing. Voluntary, because virtually every citizen should WANT to play a role.

Again, your generous – and sincere – comments regarding those of us who have or are serving in the Armed Forces are sincerely appreciated. Form extended personal experience and long introspection, I can tell you that my Naval service was both the catalyst to so many other blessings and the genesis of life-long pride.

With warmest regards -- Roy
 
Yes, in today's context it may appear so. OTOH, we can only hope that our society has the longevity of Rome's - over a thousand years.
That's one view. Personally, I would prefer to live in a shorter-lived society that didn't run on slave labor.

We eliminated slave holding from our society, and we still flourish.

There is more to the value of a society than longevity, althrough that is certainly one measure.

Furthermore, I would claim that same value as our own- our system allows us to COMPLETELY REPLACE OUR LEADERS, peacefully, based on ideals, and that single facet has (and, I believe, will) served us well.

We don't need to overthrow our government.

We can simply replace it, and do with dignity, in tuxedos, at innaugeration balls.

There is, therefore, no reason for our government to fail.
BTW, concepts do not lack value just because they are mentioned in a work of fiction. Ideas stand on their merit, regardless of the venue in which they are presented.
Unless those ideas only work within the fictional structure of that work.

We don't live in a fictional structure.

Well, most of us don't... :D
 
Unless those ideas only work within the fictional structure of that work.

We don't live in a fictional structure.
All new forms of society and government start as concepts.

To deny new concepts simply because they do not exist in the "real world" today would make you... a knuckle-dragging, ultra-neo-conservative? :D
 
An immigrant must go through a process before he is a citizen and he can legally vote, it should be no different than with native born Americans.
 
Is "earning" your citizenship required, outside of complying with the federal rules on how to become a citizen, etc etc, no it isnt. Does it make you feel better, probaly. Its a matter of morals, some care while others just dont.

How to earn it, well contray to popular belif(according to some previous posts) you dont have to serve in the military to earn it, least imo. Just having a lawful job(doesnt matter if your a CEO for some big corporate company or a dish washer at the local resturant) and paying your taxes is enough I say. Granted you can always do more, contributing to charity, community service, serving in military, etc but its not really gonna affect much else except how you feel and view yourself.
 
Citizenship = right to vote.

When the Constitution was written our founding fathers intended only white male land owners were to be allowed to vote.

In this day and age every citizen (who hasn't lost his right to vote) gets one vote. That is a definite improvement.

Perhaps we should improve the system even more now. Everyone gets one vote (unless they lose it) and some people get two votes and some people get three votes, and maybe we go as high as some get four votes.

Who gets how many votes would depend on factors such as - if you are a net tax payer as opposed to a net tax burden you get an additional vote. If you were in the military and received an honorable discharge you get an additional vote - same for LEOs, and other public servants who put their lives on the line for the rest of us.

So a person who has an honorable dishcarge and pays more taxes than the benefits he/she receives would have three votes (remember everyone starts with one). In my system a gun owner would get an additional vote because he is ready to defend himself and his country should the need arise.

So I would have four votes :cool: . Of course this is a logical idea and we live in a most illogical world :( .
 
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