"Earn it."...your citizenship
- Thread starter BreacherUp!
- Start date
During Viet Nam the Guard and Reserves were a way to get out of going into combat. Getting in required "Contacts" or even a sum of money.
Did they "Earn" anything more than the guy who went to Canada to avoid the draft?
How about the guys who joined the Peace Corps to avoid the draft?
I knew one jerk who chopped off the first digit of his trigger finger because he heard that would make him "4F". Another in my town shot his kneecap off to avoid going. Another ate untill he was morbidly obese to stay out. People got married and had kids to stay out, or took jobs that were exemp from the draft.
Should these folks loose citizenship?
Did they "Earn" anything more than the guy who went to Canada to avoid the draft?
How about the guys who joined the Peace Corps to avoid the draft?
I knew one jerk who chopped off the first digit of his trigger finger because he heard that would make him "4F". Another in my town shot his kneecap off to avoid going. Another ate untill he was morbidly obese to stay out. People got married and had kids to stay out, or took jobs that were exemp from the draft.
Should these folks loose citizenship?
Marko Kloos
Inactive
What about the folks who are not able to serve in any useful fashion, military or civil service? The mentally disabled, the crippled, the asthmatics, the ones with congenital heart defects, and so on? Want to deny them their citizenship, too?
It doesn't really matter, anyway. Tying citizenship to an act of enforced altruism is offensive and deeply un-American. Anyone who proposes such a thing usually picks an eligibility category to which they already belong. It's just another way of saying, "I'm a better citizen than you are." The notion that you only get to be a full citizen if you spend four years of your life doing something that "benefits the state" is something straight out of a dystopian novel.
Person A never serves, but goes to college instead, starts a successful business and employs 50,000 people, contributing hundreds of millions to the tax pot every year.
Person B serves as a supply clerk for four years, gets a discharge, and spends the next ten years on his mother's couch drawing unemployment and welfare.
And you're telling me I'm supposed to regard person B as a better citizen...or better yet, make person B eligible for citizenship while denying it to person A?
I "earn this" by standing up for my rights and those of others, by raising a family with responsible children that actually know the text and intent of the Constitution, by never using force or fraud against anyone, and by living a productive life. That's all the qualification I need to claim my citizenship, service or no.
It doesn't really matter, anyway. Tying citizenship to an act of enforced altruism is offensive and deeply un-American. Anyone who proposes such a thing usually picks an eligibility category to which they already belong. It's just another way of saying, "I'm a better citizen than you are." The notion that you only get to be a full citizen if you spend four years of your life doing something that "benefits the state" is something straight out of a dystopian novel.
Person A never serves, but goes to college instead, starts a successful business and employs 50,000 people, contributing hundreds of millions to the tax pot every year.
Person B serves as a supply clerk for four years, gets a discharge, and spends the next ten years on his mother's couch drawing unemployment and welfare.
And you're telling me I'm supposed to regard person B as a better citizen...or better yet, make person B eligible for citizenship while denying it to person A?
I "earn this" by standing up for my rights and those of others, by raising a family with responsible children that actually know the text and intent of the Constitution, by never using force or fraud against anyone, and by living a productive life. That's all the qualification I need to claim my citizenship, service or no.
I think I understand what BreacherUp! is saying as well as Jammer.
BreacherUp! is sick and tired of people just sitting on the couch doing nothing and demanding everything.
Jammer is saying that everyone is equal and should be treated as such.
I too am sick and tired of people doing nothing, depising America, and then demanding that everything is given to them. But I have to agree with Jammer, Marko Kloos, and the others that says that everyone is equal, no matter how lazy or how heroic.
Wayne
*and, I could have read this entire thread wrong.
BreacherUp! is sick and tired of people just sitting on the couch doing nothing and demanding everything.
Jammer is saying that everyone is equal and should be treated as such.
I too am sick and tired of people doing nothing, depising America, and then demanding that everything is given to them. But I have to agree with Jammer, Marko Kloos, and the others that says that everyone is equal, no matter how lazy or how heroic.
Wayne
*and, I could have read this entire thread wrong.
The problem isn't that people don't have to "earn" their citizenship, it's that they don't have to learn what citizenship entails in the first place. In 2000 I had a woman at work (a Russian immigrant and citizen, BTW) tell me that I should vote for Gore because he was better looking than Bush. Now if she'd told me I should vote for Gore because he was pro-choice, anti-gun or whatever I may have disagreed with her but could respect her choice, but choosing a president based on LOOKS? I don't care if he's as ugly as a troll (which may happen in 2008 if Hillary wins, but I digress).
How many people voting today even KNOW what the role of the president is? How many know the difference between a senator and a representative? How many know what the supreme court is supposed to do? How many have read the Constitution, Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence?
How many people voting today even KNOW what the role of the president is? How many know the difference between a senator and a representative? How many know what the supreme court is supposed to do? How many have read the Constitution, Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence?
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
I don't believe that, in the original post, BreacherUp! said anything about mandatory service, or HAVING to earn it. Somehow, this degenerated into a debate over the draft. What he DID suggest was a self-imposed obligation to give something back, and I whole-heartedly agree.
)
Each and every American should do what they can. Of course the disabled shouldn't have to serve in the military, but how about volunteering at a senior's center, or a hospital? It isn't about "you MUST earn your citizenship". It IS about your conscience allowing you to sit on the couch, doing nothing, and demanding everything. If you can do this, I can't see how you can possibly call yourself an American.
(Hey Wayne! We actually AGREE on something!
)Each and every American should do what they can. Of course the disabled shouldn't have to serve in the military, but how about volunteering at a senior's center, or a hospital? It isn't about "you MUST earn your citizenship". It IS about your conscience allowing you to sit on the couch, doing nothing, and demanding everything. If you can do this, I can't see how you can possibly call yourself an American.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Agreed that Breach is talking about "giving back"; not necessarily Mil Service. However, in response to his initial post, I don't think you can consider any voluntary and paid occupation to be "selfless service". A person chooses it; a person is paid for it.
If, to follow his list, we would consider "law, LEO, fire, counselor" to be "selfless service" why not Teacher, Doctor, Nurse, Veterinarian, Librarian, Preacher, Garbage Collector, Farmer, Ambulance Driver, Writer, Pilot, Bus Driver, Aerospace Engineer....well, you get the idea. They all contribute significantly.
The whole point of a free market is to allow people to Choose a profession in a market that will pay them the value which society freely places on that role. No, just being in a service industry hardly qualifies as "selfless service". Selfless service is what you do after you earn your wage; Selfless service is enlistment in a military organization that then owns your butt for the Next X Years.
I'll settle for items like Mike Irwin mentioned; I'll settle also for parents who raise kids to truly understand the meaning of America; kids who challenge, reach, learn, risk and dream. That's REALLY giving something back.
Rich
If, to follow his list, we would consider "law, LEO, fire, counselor" to be "selfless service" why not Teacher, Doctor, Nurse, Veterinarian, Librarian, Preacher, Garbage Collector, Farmer, Ambulance Driver, Writer, Pilot, Bus Driver, Aerospace Engineer....well, you get the idea. They all contribute significantly.
The whole point of a free market is to allow people to Choose a profession in a market that will pay them the value which society freely places on that role. No, just being in a service industry hardly qualifies as "selfless service". Selfless service is what you do after you earn your wage; Selfless service is enlistment in a military organization that then owns your butt for the Next X Years.
I'll settle for items like Mike Irwin mentioned; I'll settle also for parents who raise kids to truly understand the meaning of America; kids who challenge, reach, learn, risk and dream. That's REALLY giving something back.
Rich
Mike Irwin
Staff
I've one to add to my list.
I just spent the afternoon helping two neighbors trim the trees that were overhanging their roofs.
I didn't have to, but I wanted to. It helps foster the spirit of community in our neighborhood.
What I'm not too crazy about is the nasty gash I got on my left hand while doing it.
I just spent the afternoon helping two neighbors trim the trees that were overhanging their roofs.
I didn't have to, but I wanted to. It helps foster the spirit of community in our neighborhood.
What I'm not too crazy about is the nasty gash I got on my left hand while doing it.
I agree with Rich’s and Mike’s basic thrust. Justice Holmes (I believe) said “America is the easiest club in the world to join, but with the highest dues”.
We pay our dues that provide our liberty by being good citizens, by serving this nation – and each other – in ways, large and small. For example, I was privileged to serve in the Navy for two decades; while I am immensely proud of that service, I do not believe it is nobler than a good cop’s, or schoolteacher’s, or physician’s, and so forth.
With this said, I do not agree that citizens should be able to gain the benefits of our nation/society without paying-back. The form of that payment is infinitely variable – and those with physical and mental limitations should also have the privilege and the joyous satisfaction of service – but everyone should contribute.
We celebrated Memorial Day a few weekends ago. Living in Fairfax County and being a retired officer, I always go to Arlington to visit the graves of my friends and colleagues who have preceded me in death. When you walk through row upon row of those who have provided distinguished service to America, you come to understand that there is no finer way that one can devote his life and talents.
More people – especially the so-called elites, with wealth, position, and superior educations – should try it.
We pay our dues that provide our liberty by being good citizens, by serving this nation – and each other – in ways, large and small. For example, I was privileged to serve in the Navy for two decades; while I am immensely proud of that service, I do not believe it is nobler than a good cop’s, or schoolteacher’s, or physician’s, and so forth.
With this said, I do not agree that citizens should be able to gain the benefits of our nation/society without paying-back. The form of that payment is infinitely variable – and those with physical and mental limitations should also have the privilege and the joyous satisfaction of service – but everyone should contribute.
We celebrated Memorial Day a few weekends ago. Living in Fairfax County and being a retired officer, I always go to Arlington to visit the graves of my friends and colleagues who have preceded me in death. When you walk through row upon row of those who have provided distinguished service to America, you come to understand that there is no finer way that one can devote his life and talents.
More people – especially the so-called elites, with wealth, position, and superior educations – should try it.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
RWK-
You misunderstand me. I said the following:
The "OR" was intended to affirmatively indicate those in the Military as having engaged in "selfless service". I appreciate your attempt to diminish your own contribution in that regard, but I just can't let that go. Accepting a position where you are under another's control 24/7 and paid a "wage" fixed not by the market but by the Government is the very definition of "service".
I thank you for yours. [have edited my original for clarity]
Rich
You misunderstand me. I said the following:
The "OR" was intended to affirmatively indicate those in the Military as having engaged in "selfless service". I appreciate your attempt to diminish your own contribution in that regard, but I just can't let that go. Accepting a position where you are under another's control 24/7 and paid a "wage" fixed not by the market but by the Government is the very definition of "service".
I thank you for yours. [have edited my original for clarity]
Rich
Good point. I think that outlook is much more reasonably than trying to say that you have to serve in the military to be a worthy citizen. People who enter the military deserve high respect and gain things that some people wouldn't be able to get any other way, but it's not some mystic institution that magically grants you superior powers and turns you into a better person. That would be a cop-out, the real thing is more realistic. Better.
I go out of my way to do things to make lives easier for servicemen and women who pass through the sphere of influence that is my life where I can change events a little, because they took their turn on the wall for me. I think the real question is, what did you change?
See, we all can change things. We learn how to do things, aquire skills, and apply them. What mark do we leave on our country and world? What did we improve? What did we set as our goals and who did we influence and what results did we get?
That's the question. Some people leave a legacy of criminal acts and a final bloody death. Some people leave legacies of selfless community service and charity. Some people leave legacies of heroic, courageous battle in the very face of death in order for their countrymen to remain secure, and some people make sure that they have a country to come home to that cares about them and is grateful. Some people crusade for rights. Some people will fight and die to return this country to what it should be. Any one of those actions, any single one of those influences, no matter how small, as long as it is positive, is a defining act of citizenship of this nation.
Whenever I meet a soldier returning from Iraq, or Afghanistan, or even just some base in Germany, I see what could have been me and I ask "what if?"
I know I'm going to be asking myself that for the rest of my life if I don't take my turn on the wall, and I know that the way I live my life, there won't be anything that can hold me back when I finally don't have any more ties holding me here and can go the same path my Grandfather and his ancestors took when they looked at the world and decided to step into a much greater sphere of influence apon it.
Sorry if that got a little long.
I go out of my way to do things to make lives easier for servicemen and women who pass through the sphere of influence that is my life where I can change events a little, because they took their turn on the wall for me. I think the real question is, what did you change?
See, we all can change things. We learn how to do things, aquire skills, and apply them. What mark do we leave on our country and world? What did we improve? What did we set as our goals and who did we influence and what results did we get?
That's the question. Some people leave a legacy of criminal acts and a final bloody death. Some people leave legacies of selfless community service and charity. Some people leave legacies of heroic, courageous battle in the very face of death in order for their countrymen to remain secure, and some people make sure that they have a country to come home to that cares about them and is grateful. Some people crusade for rights. Some people will fight and die to return this country to what it should be. Any one of those actions, any single one of those influences, no matter how small, as long as it is positive, is a defining act of citizenship of this nation.
Whenever I meet a soldier returning from Iraq, or Afghanistan, or even just some base in Germany, I see what could have been me and I ask "what if?"
I know I'm going to be asking myself that for the rest of my life if I don't take my turn on the wall, and I know that the way I live my life, there won't be anything that can hold me back when I finally don't have any more ties holding me here and can go the same path my Grandfather and his ancestors took when they looked at the world and decided to step into a much greater sphere of influence apon it.
Sorry if that got a little long.
I have earned it!
I spent 23 years and 3 months serving in the U.S. Navy and retired in the year 2000. Yes! I am very proud of the service that I have given to this country and I am proud of every veteran that served this country."Freedom is not Free!" Many people take Liberty forgranted, many lives were lost and blood was shed so the American people can live a life that's free!
IF YOU ENJOY LIVING IN A FREE AMERICA, THANK A VET!
I spent 23 years and 3 months serving in the U.S. Navy and retired in the year 2000. Yes! I am very proud of the service that I have given to this country and I am proud of every veteran that served this country."Freedom is not Free!" Many people take Liberty forgranted, many lives were lost and blood was shed so the American people can live a life that's free!
IF YOU ENJOY LIVING IN A FREE AMERICA, THANK A VET!