You don't seem to understand that those two sentences contradict each other. If the "internals" were completely reworked to incorporate the modular chassis you want, the "outside" would be just a cosmetic piece. Do you honestly believe that design and testing are without cost?
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Durability&Longevity of aluminum alloy frame pistols (Taurus PT 92/Beretta 92)
- Thread starter TheGuyOfSouthamerica
- Start date
You don't seem to understand that those two sentences contradict each other. If the "internals" were completely reworked to incorporate the modular chassis you want, the "outside" would be just a cosmetic piece. Do you honestly believe that design and testing are without cost?
Any mechanical device is going to require some sort of maintenance, regardless of any advancements made.
For example, back in the day it was recommended to change automotive oil every 3k miles or so. Nowadays new cars can run 8k plus between changes and most good synthetic oil is rated to at least 15k.
But it still has to be changed.
To bring it back to guns, the 92 and clones are a 1985 (give or take) design and basically beholden to the same limitations of an '85 civic with respect to regular maintenance.
Just because this frame or that frame has better longevity between maintenance periods does not equate to maintenance free.
I've had my 92fs since 2012, maybe a little longer. I think I may have just passed 1k rounds, with plenty of +p in that count and I still have plenty of paint on the rails and my locking lugs are barely shiny.
Would a steel insert increase longevity? Maybe, but since the design was never intended to feature this, manufacturing one would start off a whole new set of growing pains. If you want a steel insert, I believe the new SIGS do this. You just swap the firing unit to whatever frame you want to use.
The 92 was never designed for this and likely couldn't be produced that way at a reasonable price point. Accept the limitations of the platform.
For example, back in the day it was recommended to change automotive oil every 3k miles or so. Nowadays new cars can run 8k plus between changes and most good synthetic oil is rated to at least 15k.
But it still has to be changed.
To bring it back to guns, the 92 and clones are a 1985 (give or take) design and basically beholden to the same limitations of an '85 civic with respect to regular maintenance.
Just because this frame or that frame has better longevity between maintenance periods does not equate to maintenance free.
I've had my 92fs since 2012, maybe a little longer. I think I may have just passed 1k rounds, with plenty of +p in that count and I still have plenty of paint on the rails and my locking lugs are barely shiny.
Would a steel insert increase longevity? Maybe, but since the design was never intended to feature this, manufacturing one would start off a whole new set of growing pains. If you want a steel insert, I believe the new SIGS do this. You just swap the firing unit to whatever frame you want to use.
The 92 was never designed for this and likely couldn't be produced that way at a reasonable price point. Accept the limitations of the platform.
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Jim Watson
New member
since today all is CNC machined it would be easy to Change the program pressing a few Buttons
I have a friend in the business, it is far from easy.
One machinist said that the main thing about CNC machining is that if you do not get everything just right, it will turn out scrap metal faster than ever before possible.
It is a common Internet Subject:
""They" should make a product that suits my wishes."
Well, "they" are not going to do it unless they see a profitable market, and "they" are not reading the boards looking for it.
So I am sure that steel wear inserts in an aluminum frame will remain an expensive specialty item, not a mass produced consumer product.
While I haven't seen one in person or seen how the modular system on it works, the Beretta APX does what you're saying. So the inventors of the 92 series did go modular and with a polymer frame. As you yourself admitted, polymer can last longer than aluminum. And yes it is certainly cheaper. The nice thing about the fact that it's cheaper is that if something were to happen to the frame and it was damaged or inoperable you can swap in a new polymer frame for $40 because of how easy it is for the manufacturer to mold them. That wouldn't remotely be true with aluminum. So you'd have a modular pistol with all the cost of a standard aluminum frame. The only real savings would not being required to be issued a new serial number. While that's useful in certain states and countries, it has a limited appeal. Couple that limited appeal with the fact that the modular frame would be expensive and you need a clientele with a significant income and the market gets even smaller.
There's a reason why the new modular designs use polymer, and yes part of it is that it's easier and more profitable for the companies. But those benefits do translate to the consumer as well and besides aesthetics and personal preferences aluminum really doesn't have an advantage over polymer.
There's a reason why the new modular designs use polymer, and yes part of it is that it's easier and more profitable for the companies. But those benefits do translate to the consumer as well and besides aesthetics and personal preferences aluminum really doesn't have an advantage over polymer.
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TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
One machinist said that the main thing about CNC machining is that if you do not get everything just right, it will turn out scrap metal faster than ever before possible.
My experience with "CNC" machining is with an Brother stich sewing machine which makes figures and any Picture or model you feed it on the Computer.
The sewing machine makes exact the same Thing as it is fed by the Software. That is a type of CNC machining as well. Just 2 Dimensional.
Obviously an engineer has to feed in the data correctly and all new calculated values has to be calculated for the modular Beretta 92, but it must not be that incredible expensive.
No, a SIG P250 or the like is not the same as would be an modular Beretta 92. PX storm or the like are not the same as an all metal modular Beretta 92 (I would not want to miss the open top Barrel, etc).
Brother stich sewing machine
With your modular steel/aluminum pistol you're talking about materials much more expensive than fabric and used in an application that if not done properly could cause serious injury to the user. It's both more complicated and with more liability. It's not directly comparable.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I am not complaining, I just wanted to make an Suggestion to improvement.
CNC sewing machines are 2 dimensional and CNC metal frasers are 3 dimensional. But it should be doable for a reasonable Price. Technology has gone far enough to mke it possible but economic focuses are hindering mny new improvement (may eliminate the Money factor).
I would not want to miss the Holding and touching abilities of aluminum Frames. The polymer feel is just not the same, specially it became ever more "quirky" due to less polymer thickness applyed in order to "save a dime".
Aluminum has better feel, rigidness and Looks than polymer.
CNC sewing machines are 2 dimensional and CNC metal frasers are 3 dimensional. But it should be doable for a reasonable Price. Technology has gone far enough to mke it possible but economic focuses are hindering mny new improvement (may eliminate the Money factor).
I would not want to miss the Holding and touching abilities of aluminum Frames. The polymer feel is just not the same, specially it became ever more "quirky" due to less polymer thickness applyed in order to "save a dime".
Aluminum has better feel, rigidness and Looks than polymer.
With your modular steel/aluminum pistol you're talking about materials much more expensive than fabric and used in an application that if not done properly could cause serious injury to the user.
Nor does aluminum have the same flexibility that polymer does. Seems to be asking more of a material than intended.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it should
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Flexibility is not the clue.
Since then guns could not been made of steel or stainless steel.
Aluminum is used to cheapen.
Polymer is used to further cheapen the manufacturer cost.
Has nothing to do with "Flex" but Flex saves the whole idea by flexingly making possible the use of that "el cheapo" material for the same Price as an steel gun. The flexing properties are a positive by-product of the polymer.
Since then guns could not been made of steel or stainless steel.
Aluminum is used to cheapen.
Polymer is used to further cheapen the manufacturer cost.
Has nothing to do with "Flex" but Flex saves the whole idea by flexingly making possible the use of that "el cheapo" material for the same Price as an steel gun. The flexing properties are a positive by-product of the polymer.
The polymer feel is just not the same, specially it became ever more "quirky" due to less polymer thickness applyed in order to "save a dime".
There are companies using thicker frames than others if that's a concern. But as we've covered with you before the frame can flex and be fine. Nor do I think you have proof that the only reason certain manufacturers use polymer of varying thickness is to "save a dime". Nor have I seen, in owning almost every model of polymer framed pistol in production from Glocks onward, any proof that there is a trend of polymer getting thinner and thinner. Indeed the frame of the P250 and the P320 is relatively thick despite it being a newer design. Different manufacturers just choose to make different choices. You just continue to make person judgments and assume they're true.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
The P250 and the like modular ones does not matter if it has a thin Plastik or thick. Just buy a new one.
I have on Hand my spare Frame for the Beretta Pico 380 acp.
That Frame is sturdier than the SD9VE Frame was. I tell ya.
O yes. Economics determine novadays everything! Tell your Boss (or if you are a Business owner) not to lay off employees if he writes red numbers (costs are higher than income).
Same Thing do gun manufacturers cheapening the materials.
This is common knowledge. I tell ya.
I have on Hand my spare Frame for the Beretta Pico 380 acp.
That Frame is sturdier than the SD9VE Frame was. I tell ya.
O yes. Economics determine novadays everything! Tell your Boss (or if you are a Business owner) not to lay off employees if he writes red numbers (costs are higher than income).
Same Thing do gun manufacturers cheapening the materials.
This is common knowledge. I tell ya.
The P250 and the like modular ones does not matter if it has a thin Plastik or thick. Just buy a new one.
My point was it is not thin, despite your continued insistence that newer frames are thinner than say Glocks. I know it's modular. That's besides the point. The point is your statement about frames getting thinner can be directly countered by examples in the market.
I have on Hand my spare Frame for the Beretta Pico 380 acp.
That Frame is sturdier than the SD9VE Frame was. I tell ya.
I knew you'd bring this up. One model from one company does not make a market wide trend. It doesn't. For that matter the Pico is a newer design. If the trend is to thinner frames as you claim, it should have a weaker frame.
O yes. Economics determine novadays everything! Tell your Boss (or if you are a Business owner) not to lay off employees if he writes red numbers (costs are higher than income).
For someone with a degree in economics, you seem to have a limited understanding of the subject or more notably the history of it.
This is common knowledge. I tell ya.
I can think of some common knowledge I wish ya had.
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TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Tunnelrat,
Don't tell me a Company doesn't lay off employees if they have difficulties. My experience in Canada tells me other wise.
Please explain what do you mean. For that Company I wanted to work which does never lay off People despite bankrupticy.
Don't tell me a Company doesn't lay off employees if they have difficulties. My experience in Canada tells me other wise.
Please explain what do you mean. For that Company I wanted to work which does never lay off People despite bankrupticy.
Flexibility does come into play when you suggest mating two materials together with different strengths.
With an inserted steel rail system like you suggest, flexibility is what allows that rail system not to blow apart. Polymer allows the ability to do that while also reducing weight, and yes also price.
The same cannot be asked of aluminum, itself, as you said, a more rigid material.
I'm by no means an engineer, but trying to joint a steel slide to steel rails, then mating that whole bit into a aluminum frame seems structurally problematic.
With an inserted steel rail system like you suggest, flexibility is what allows that rail system not to blow apart. Polymer allows the ability to do that while also reducing weight, and yes also price.
The same cannot be asked of aluminum, itself, as you said, a more rigid material.
I'm by no means an engineer, but trying to joint a steel slide to steel rails, then mating that whole bit into a aluminum frame seems structurally problematic.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
15plus1
A question of programming and data for the CNC machine.
Yes, global economics gives a throw up.
but trying to joint a steel slide to steel rails, then mating that whole bit into a aluminum frame seems structurally problematic.
A question of programming and data for the CNC machine.
Yes, global economics gives a throw up.
Don't tell me a Company doesn't lay off employees if they have difficulties. My experience in Canada tells me other wise.
Please explain what do you mean. For that Company I wanted to work which does never lay off People despite bankrupticy.
I never claimed the first part. I never would. My point was companies laying off employees rather than going bankrupt isn't a new trend of "novadays". That's been true going back to the first established companies.
Once again, your claim that polymer frames are getting thinner to reduce costs isn't true. Your Pico has a more rigid frame than your SD9VE. Yet the Pico is a newer design and by your claim should have a weaker design. There are a number of companies selling polymer pistols with frames as rigid as or more rigid than Glocks, which you use as your benchmark. For that matter you yourself have said these companies charge too much for these pistols, which would suggest you think they are making too much profit. If so that hardly suggests that they need to reduce the thickness to have a good profit margin. I imagine you'd argue it's about corporate greed, but besides your one token example you haven't shown anything that actually details an industry wide trend over time. All you have are personal observations on what are by your own admission a limited number of pistols.
It's a decision that varies by company and we don't need to have a discussion on global economic trends to figure that out, nor have a debate on the ethical obligations of companies as they relate to their employees. That's just a straw man argument to draw attention away from the fact that your original statement, concerning the trend of polymer frames, is completely wrong. Nor is it the first time you've brought up both global economics and even politics to distract from the fact that your arguments are incorrect.
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My SIG 229 9mm has over 35,000 rounds trough it. It is my most shot gun. It rattles when you shake it. But it is still totally reliable and stupid accurate. I do use grease on the slide rails. Lots of folks recommend it on SIG's. Some of the local gun ranges have SIG's, and other steel/aluminum guns with over 100,000
rounds through them.
Have had several Beretta's and two Taurus PT92's (about one of the only Taurus products I'd trust from experience). Beretta changed the design of the locking block to make it more durable a few years back. And the current one I have also has the tougher Brigidier slide. May not be as tough as a SIG. But I don't see most of us ever wearing a Beretta out with proper maintenance.
rounds through them.
Have had several Beretta's and two Taurus PT92's (about one of the only Taurus products I'd trust from experience). Beretta changed the design of the locking block to make it more durable a few years back. And the current one I have also has the tougher Brigidier slide. May not be as tough as a SIG. But I don't see most of us ever wearing a Beretta out with proper maintenance.
A question of programming and data for the CNC machine
Not as cut and dry as that.
You also have to factor in the materials used and their capabilities, while also taking into account the size of the package you have to work with.