Durability&Longevity of aluminum alloy frame pistols (Taurus PT 92/Beretta 92)

T

TheGuyOfSouthamerica

Moderator
Hi

I just aquired an Taurus PT 92 stainless and want to know how durable its aluminum frame is.

Does anyone know what kind of alloy they use for the frame?

I thought I made a good purchase and got almost a sligth heart attack when reading on forums the aluminum is the least durable of all frames.
I was relying on the US military trials having adopted the similar Beretta 92 AF and was thinking that was the culprit of longevity.

Now I read they are good up to 35000 rounds in 9mm Luger.
I feel about this like a lame duck sitting on an tree underneath an eager hunter with a shotgun.
I understand polymer Glocks have no issues going up to 100000 rounds and steel guns up to half a million 9x19 rounds.

That worries me.

Any first hand experiences with durability and round count?
 
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There is rarely any reports of issues with the aluminum frame of the beretta 92 series pistol. The locking block is prone to failure at around 20k rounds, but it is an easy enough replacement. 35k is the bare minimum, and there are some reports of them lasting to 100k rounds.

Some alloy frames have had issues, but most of these were design issues and I think most have been resolved. I think one of the early Sigs had issues, IIRC.
 
I seem to remember you stating recently that you typically shoot 6 rds every two weeks for your revolver. Even if you did 15 rds (one typical mag) every two weeks with your PT92 it works out as follows:

35000 (your guessed life span) / (26*15 (15 rds every 2 weeks in a year)) = 89.74 years. I think you're okay.
 
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I have had mine for over 25 years and it is fine so far. I don't even know how many thousands of rounds I've shot through it. I see it as a situation where 35 or 50 or 100 thousand rounds of ammo costs so more money than the pistol itself that the cost of possibly replacing the pistol at some point is inconsequential. It seems more probable, though, that I will wear out before the aluminum frame does.
 
I believe this was more observed on Sigs and aluminum 1911. Is the Beretta 92 design so much superior so they are not wearing the aluminum frames (steel slide contacts to aluminum frame= wear)?

On some forums they claim shaved off aluminum and obvious wear marks on the frame were the slide rides. Anodising is gone after way below 5000 rounds, etc
 
All I read on the internet is that the US military had set the minimum round count life expectancy for the winner of the trial to 5000 rounds. Basically the Beretta 92 should las at least but not more than 5000 rounds to be then thrown away.
They shot some to destruction and they last about 35000 rounds.

That part worried me since novadays I understand people shoot up to 100000 rounds normally having one match very well 5000 rounds. So a life expectancy of 5000 is very few for todays standards.

The above info is about the average from gun forums and specially gun smiths and metallurgists do not like the aluminum frame on a gun due to premature failing.
Aluminum frame pistols supposed to be worn a lot and shot only a few times. Dunno how that goes with the Beretta 92 as a military weapon.

Therefore first hand experience is much appreciated specially from military personell.
 
I have about 200 firearms, all have been shot some more than others, who has the time or inclination to worry about how many rounds went down the pipe? I just load more and go back to my fun. I have never worn out an aluminum frame yet.
 
I sure hope a Beretta 92 is going to last longer than 5000 rounds.....mine got that many through it in the past two years alone.....
 
So those forums and online magazine articles are fearmongering?

Specially metallurgy ingeneers detest aluminum frames in guns. Most say manufacturers speculate the gun owner will never shoot past 30000 rounds in the aluminum gun thus allowing the manufacturer to use an aluminum frame instead of steel or steel inserted rails in polymer frames.

I plan to lubricate with liquid grease the slide to frame contact points. As well I plan tu use an Wilson Combat Shok Buff to avoid battering the frame. Instead of the Shok Buff I want to try a simple rubber O-ring as well to see if it dampens the slide impact to the aluminum frame.

Some say the Beretta 92 and (?) Taurus PT 92 have steel rail inserts in the aluminum frame. If that is the case there will not be a shear off of the rail parts. Would like to know if that is true.

Any first hand info is much appreciated
 
I wouldn't worry about it. You'll spend thousands shooting the cheapest reloads using your own cast bullet before you wear out the gun. Of course that's assuming you're using in spec rounds.

I'd be more afraid of blowing up the gun because of experimenting with the unconventional reloading practices I've seen in some of your posts.
 
If VV N330 type powder at 3.3 grain is used. with 124 grain lead bullet and OAL of 1.040", then that is safe since it is an proven round in an Glock type 9mm Luger pistol.
 
Most say manufacturers speculate the gun owner will never shoot past 30000 rounds in the aluminum gun thus allowing the manufacturer to use an aluminum frame instead of steel or steel inserted rails in polymer frames.
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Total BS.

Aluminum alloy is used because it is much lighter than steel. SIGs are known to go well past 100,000 rounds if well maintained. The steel locking insert takes the brunt of the recoil force.

SIG offers steel framed Stainless Elite P226s and P229s for about the same price as the Legion, maybe even less but steel frame SIGs have always been very slow sellers because people like the weight savings in a combat style pistol.

Did you know that the CZ Compact with steel frame is priced significantly less than the CZ Compact P01 and PCR with aluminum alloy frame yet is a much slower seller?

My 2004 Honda Accord had a power train warranty of only 36,000 miles yet we still drive it and it has well over 100,000 miles and never an issue with anything under the hood.
 
Thank you for your Response sigarms228 that is exactly what I want to hear.

SIGs are known to go well past 100,000 rounds if well maintained. The steel locking insert takes the brunt of the recoil force.
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Pleased to hear that. Specially SIG and Beretta are known for their aluminum Frame guns.
Yet, exactly on many Forums "experts"&owners Claim specially SIG's cracking their aluminum Frame. Not Hearing so from Beretta's 92 model nor from Taurus PT 92's.

My Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme in Northamerica had almost 400000 Km and when I left the Country it had about 450000 Km (4 years later). You have indeed more durable cars in Northamerica than those japanese (Nissan, Toyota mostly), korean, brazilian ones in Southamerica. I never had a single Trouble with my Oldsmobile.
But I wonder what relationship have guns with automobiles (apples vs oranges).

I wonder if the Taurus PT 92 or Beretta 92 has such an "steel locking insert" as well.
 
Yet, exactly on many Forums "experts"&owners Claim specially SIG's cracking their aluminum Frame. Not Hearing so from Beretta's 92 model nor from Taurus PT 92's
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I have been a member for years on the two top SIG forums and I rarely have read about any frame cracking problems with SIGs, especially post early 90s SIGs. The early German P226s with the "mud rails" that had cut outs in the frame rails were indeed prone to cracking with higher pressure rounds and higher round counts and as such SIG abandoned that design. Also German P226s with the steel folded slide could have frame problems if the pistol did not have breech block pins changed at about every 5000 rounds. If those pins got weak the breech block could become loose and exert tremendous pressure on the frame during firing. Since about 1997 almost all USA made P226s use the milled stainless steel slide that does not have that problem. I have an around 1999 P226 with almost 5000 rounds through it and there is still zero finish wear on the frame rails!

IMO take good care of your pistol keeping the frame and slide rails lubed and change the recoil spring per recommended schedule and your pistol will last many tens of thousands of rounds.

Oh and good deal on your Oldsmobile. :D
 
SIG aluminum cracked Frames all over the place. This and similar Posts scared me a bit.

I've owned a number of both. In alloy frames; SIG, S&W , Colt and probably others that don't come to mind right this minute. I have seen alloy frames crack, one was my Colt Commander, after moderate use. My Commander cracked vertically on the left side of the frame in the area where the slide impacts against the alloy frame with every shot. I stop-drilled the crack and the gun was still usable. A family member now owns the old gun and I noticed recently that the right side of the frame is cracking vertically in the same area. Two others were new SIG P226s, which cracked horizontally in the frame rails, after a few hundred rounds of non +p 9MM training ammo during semi-auto transition training and qualification. I only had the one alloy frame crack, but have noticed something else. While my steel framed guns just seem to get smoother, but not looser with use, The alloy framed guns slide/frame fit gets Looser as the steel slide wears through the hard anodized surface of the aluminum alloy frame rails. Within my humble experience, the SIG anodizing has proved the most durable of the guns I've owned with anodized frames. I still own and sometimes carry alloy framed guns due to their lighter weight, but I don't consider them to be as durable as the steel framed guns, and don't shoot them a lot...ymmv
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Source: http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-pistols/23614-steel-vs-alloy-frame.html
 
The Taurus PT92 and Beretta 92 fall into a quality/durability class where if you can afford to buy enough ammunition to wear one out, you can easily afford to buy a new gun at that point.

I would expect to get well over 50,000 rounds out of either pistol if properly maintained and shot with standard pressure, good quality, ammunition.
I wonder if the Taurus PT 92 or Beretta 92 has such an "steel locking insert" as well.
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The PT92 and Beretta 92 pistols share the same basic design, but they are very different from the SIG design.

The two pistols have a steel locking block which is very different from the SIG steel locking insert. Some people recommend replacing these locking blocks every 20,000 rounds. Beretta sells a kit including a locking block, locking block pin and recoil spring. I don't know what availability or cost is like in South America, but they are easily available and reasonably priced in the U.S. http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-92-96-locking-block-kit/le9201/
My 2004 Honda Accord had a power train warranty of only 36,000 miles yet we still drive it and it has well over 100,000 miles and never an issue with anything under the hood.
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I have owned 3 Honda Accords with a combined mileage of 700,000 miles (1,126,000 km). My second one was totaled at 189,000 miles (304,000km) when someone hit me from behind at a red light. I'm still driving the third one and it has about 182,000 miles (293,000 km) on it right now.
 
SIG aluminum cracked Frames all over the place. This and similar Posts scared me a bit.
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Honestly you seem to be on a fishing expedition looking for such information. I had seen that post in the past but I would need a lot more information about the poster and much more specific details to take that with any credibility that there is a problem in general with alloy SIG frames. I have seen similar about steel frame cracking and poly frames cracking but again not enough to cause concern for me.

To me it was kind of like when I went looking for a new lawn mower. Honda reviews should like 365 five star ratings and half a dozen one star ratings from people who claimed to have various problems. I ignored the one star ratings, yet I am sure there are those that would only dwell on the 6 negative reviews.

Google "Bruce Gray" and you can also email him though his is a very busy person. He has talked at length about durability about the classic P series SIGs.
 
So you are saying between the lines the Beretta 92 design is somewhat superior to the SIG design?

Will this kit fit the Taurus PT92 as well?

I can get this kit by importing but if it is awaillable on Amazon or ebay it is easier to bring. I anyways was planning to get 2 spare springs for the 92 but could nowhere find an locking block on Amazon.com

The Action of the Taurus PT 92 design is way more Slick and easy to rack than the slide of an Glock type pistol I had before. Even children, women and older Folks would be able to rack the slide of an Beretta 92 type pistol; not so of an 18 lbs spring Glock.
I observed as well how thick the aluminum Frame of the PT 92 is as I disassemble it. The Frame indeed has a big cross section. As well the slide was just a massive piece of steel.

What do you recommend: and 13 lbs Standard spring or an 15 lbs heavy spring? Which saves the gun Frame more?
 
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