Don't mess with the Polk cty. FL Sheriff
- Thread starter skeeter1
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johnsonrlp
New member
11 rounds each from (probably) full autos is excessive?
You've never been shot at.oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
Hunting for a crazed killer in dense forest? I would be willing to bet that those SWAT guys were more than a little bit on-edge. When the troll jumped out from under his log with a pistol, they lit him up. What's the big deal?
Given the close range and low hit-rate I'd say were probably either shooting full-auto or shooting semi-auto and pulling the trigger as fast as it would go. Nine guys who are better than average semi-auto shooters would take around 4 or 5 seconds max to shoot 110 shots. Nine guys with full-autos would take about one second to shoot 110 shots.
That's between 12 and 13 shots each. And assuming they're carrying hi-capacity magazines, at least some of them had ammo left in their guns when they quit.
So a known cop-killer pops up "right under their feet" with a gun in his hand. They respond by each firing around 12 rounds and the shooting is probably over in 1 to 5 seconds.
Sorry, that hardly sounds excessive to me.
That's between 12 and 13 shots each. And assuming they're carrying hi-capacity magazines, at least some of them had ammo left in their guns when they quit.
So a known cop-killer pops up "right under their feet" with a gun in his hand. They respond by each firing around 12 rounds and the shooting is probably over in 1 to 5 seconds.
Sorry, that hardly sounds excessive to me.
jeff_troop
New member
i saw the guys picture. i wouldn't have minded if they shot him 68 more times
The man earned death no doubt, but 68 times? I feel it was probably over kill. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but the fact remains that the general public and the press are likely to see it that way. Which makes for bad PR for police and swat teams country wide. Might make the next "cop killer " think twice too.
I wasn't there so not going to make judgments, however I do believe it could have been handled better.
I wasn't there so not going to make judgments, however I do believe it could have been handled better.
But do the math, rem33. 110 total shots fired, 68 hits (they do need some practice time with that accuracy rating, though) by TEN officers. That's 11 shots fired per officer. One magazine of most fullsize semiautos (my XD-40 holds 12, theoretically, although 11 is as many as I can squeeze in). What it means is that, assuming no full auto, each officer emptied one mag.
Assume full auto, and each officer barely fired.
It's a lot of rounds because it was ten officers shooting, not because one officer stood there and kept reloading until he'd gone through the equivalent of two boxes of ammo plus a few.
Springmom
Assume full auto, and each officer barely fired.
It's a lot of rounds because it was ten officers shooting, not because one officer stood there and kept reloading until he'd gone through the equivalent of two boxes of ammo plus a few.
Springmom
Mike Irwin
Staff
Low hit rate?
I think not.
That's what, 55%?
I think the average hit rate in any shooting situation is less than 10%.
I think not.
That's what, 55%?
I think the average hit rate in any shooting situation is less than 10%.
As others have pretty much said,
From a variety of sources; nine (or perhaps even ten) officers fired a total of 110 rounds. Do the math, that’s only ten to twelve rounds per officer, twelve rounds at a man known to be a killer, twelve rounds at a man known to be willing to kill to evade arrest, twelve rounds at a man pointing a weapon at you and your fellow officers. Come on people! One hundred and ten rounds could seem like a lot until you actually think about it. If they had their weapons on full auto (entirely reasonable given the situation), 12 rounds per weapon is only about a seconds worth of trigger pull. Given the stress and adrenaline, I can’t see any problem with their actions as currently reported.
From a variety of sources; nine (or perhaps even ten) officers fired a total of 110 rounds. Do the math, that’s only ten to twelve rounds per officer, twelve rounds at a man known to be a killer, twelve rounds at a man known to be willing to kill to evade arrest, twelve rounds at a man pointing a weapon at you and your fellow officers. Come on people! One hundred and ten rounds could seem like a lot until you actually think about it. If they had their weapons on full auto (entirely reasonable given the situation), 12 rounds per weapon is only about a seconds worth of trigger pull. Given the stress and adrenaline, I can’t see any problem with their actions as currently reported.
Rant to follow:
This is directed at those that think the SWAT officers acted murderously:
I can appreciate people keeping a close eye on law enforcement. After all, we as American’s give law enforcement a huge amount of authority in order to help maintain our society. But people! This knee-jerk response that law enforcement is always bad is getting tiresome. Even a rudimentary set of thinking skills should have told you that this situation was reasonable.
Before I get this rant going let me make it clear that I do not work for your local PD. I don’t don the blue to keep streets safe. I don’t kiss my wife goodbye each night to make sure that the 16 year old drunk doesn’t drive his car head on into your sister. I don’t get a call at three a.m. to check an empty office building to stop a possible burglary attempt. I don’t get dispatched to a school to deal with somebody shooting up the kids inside. I don’t have to clean up the blood and guts of somebody’s kid because some other idiot thought that red light meant everybody else but him. I don’t come out to somebody’s house to break up the beating some dude is giving his wife, only to be spit on by the wife for taking her husband to jail. No, I don’t do any of those things, but I sure as hell respect those that do. I am sick and tired of the people on this forum disengaging their brains at the first opportunity to criticize a cop. I’ve seen the problems created by dirty law enforcement, and believe you me, I have been, and will continue to be, right there with you screaming for that dirty cops badge and for any other appropriate punishment. However, I’m a mature enough individual to be able to take a given situation and apply even the smallest bit of thinking skills towards it, in order to make a fair decision about it.
Try thinking a bit people. You'll be amazed how beneficial it is.
This is directed at those that think the SWAT officers acted murderously:
I can appreciate people keeping a close eye on law enforcement. After all, we as American’s give law enforcement a huge amount of authority in order to help maintain our society. But people! This knee-jerk response that law enforcement is always bad is getting tiresome. Even a rudimentary set of thinking skills should have told you that this situation was reasonable.
Before I get this rant going let me make it clear that I do not work for your local PD. I don’t don the blue to keep streets safe. I don’t kiss my wife goodbye each night to make sure that the 16 year old drunk doesn’t drive his car head on into your sister. I don’t get a call at three a.m. to check an empty office building to stop a possible burglary attempt. I don’t get dispatched to a school to deal with somebody shooting up the kids inside. I don’t have to clean up the blood and guts of somebody’s kid because some other idiot thought that red light meant everybody else but him. I don’t come out to somebody’s house to break up the beating some dude is giving his wife, only to be spit on by the wife for taking her husband to jail. No, I don’t do any of those things, but I sure as hell respect those that do. I am sick and tired of the people on this forum disengaging their brains at the first opportunity to criticize a cop. I’ve seen the problems created by dirty law enforcement, and believe you me, I have been, and will continue to be, right there with you screaming for that dirty cops badge and for any other appropriate punishment. However, I’m a mature enough individual to be able to take a given situation and apply even the smallest bit of thinking skills towards it, in order to make a fair decision about it.
Try thinking a bit people. You'll be amazed how beneficial it is.
I agree that this was a good shoot. I do have a problem with what the Sheriff PIO had to say this morning on the news. Sheriff Grady Judd said that this is not the end of this, and went on to say that they are going to go after the rest of the area drug dealers. I only hope that this will not spawn a rash of police killings.
Amazing! In Florida in '86 everyone is piling on how the FBI screwed up against Platt and Matix by not being prepared, being out gunned, not being good shooters, using bad tactics, bad ammo, or any other such arguments.
In this case a known cop killer is taken down by good planning, which provided for an over-whelming amount of LE and firepower when apprehension is attempted. Perp is a killer, is armed, yet NO further LE (or innocents) were injured when he had to be taken out.
A job well done!
In this case a known cop killer is taken down by good planning, which provided for an over-whelming amount of LE and firepower when apprehension is attempted. Perp is a killer, is armed, yet NO further LE (or innocents) were injured when he had to be taken out.
A job well done!
Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
Could be that everybody there wanted to be sure that nobody there had to be individually linked to the death of the parasite. It's great that he got shot 68 times. Wish he'd gotten shot 168 times. Or it could be that, as was pointed out in another thread, in tense conditions, dealing with a known rabid, uncivilized, savage killer, perhaps the officers' reflexes took over when the shooting started. I don't think anything unreasonable was done in this case, and I think that concluding from the Sheriff's statement regarding drug dealers that there are going to be more police killings is indicative of pretty shallow thinking. (Not that I'd be concerned if more drug dealers were killed by the police.)
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Personally, I think it's perfect timing to send a message:"Kill a cop and attempt, later, to shoot your way to a jail cell is not likely to play out too well in this burb."
Rich
Scott Conklin
New member
The message of "kill a cop..." is meaningless. He's just another human being and the message should be the same for anyone. We've been over that before.
It bothers me to some degree how this went down but, since there is no question this WAS the perp, so be it. I do think the Sheriff's comments after the fact could cause more trouble than he wants. If not with other potential killers then with some lawsuit happy bottom-feeder owned by the recently deceased's family...
It bothers me to some degree how this went down but, since there is no question this WAS the perp, so be it. I do think the Sheriff's comments after the fact could cause more trouble than he wants. If not with other potential killers then with some lawsuit happy bottom-feeder owned by the recently deceased's family...
"And if a frog had wings.........." People who dislike the police, or any form of government, will always have something to say about how the job was performed. It will, until faced with overwhelming resistance, routinely be negative.
None of us were there. None of us were privy to what actually happened. We are all relying on reports from the MSM. A source which, by the way, is routinely snubbed as inaccurate, misleading, and sometimes actively pursuing it's own agenda to the point of outright fabrication. Why would the same people who do this suddenly take everything uttered as the Holy Grail of Truth?
The gentleman in question committed "suicide by cop". If you have a single bone to pick, it would be that the expenditure of ammunition could have been minimized, to help with budget constraints. For anything else, you should get a job with CNN. You'd fit right in.:barf:
None of us were there. None of us were privy to what actually happened. We are all relying on reports from the MSM. A source which, by the way, is routinely snubbed as inaccurate, misleading, and sometimes actively pursuing it's own agenda to the point of outright fabrication. Why would the same people who do this suddenly take everything uttered as the Holy Grail of Truth?
The gentleman in question committed "suicide by cop". If you have a single bone to pick, it would be that the expenditure of ammunition could have been minimized, to help with budget constraints. For anything else, you should get a job with CNN. You'd fit right in.:barf:
Mike Irwin
Staff
"It is better than average, but we're talking SWAT at "standing on top of him" range."
Which means... what exactly?
Most general police shootouts occur at close range, and yet the hit ratio isn't very good at all.
And just because someone is a SWAT officer doesn't mean that each one is Dead Eye Dick, The Cowboy Supershooter.
I've shot with a number of tac & SWAT officers over the years, and generally they're not much better/worse than the average officer. I particularly remember one police marksman who was hell on wheels with a rifle, but put a handgun in his hands and I swear to God he turned into Elmer Fudd.
My biggest concern is that the Sheriff's statement might come back to haunt him, the sheriff's office, and the county in any subsequent legal action. And that would be a shame.
Which means... what exactly?
Most general police shootouts occur at close range, and yet the hit ratio isn't very good at all.
And just because someone is a SWAT officer doesn't mean that each one is Dead Eye Dick, The Cowboy Supershooter.
I've shot with a number of tac & SWAT officers over the years, and generally they're not much better/worse than the average officer. I particularly remember one police marksman who was hell on wheels with a rifle, but put a handgun in his hands and I swear to God he turned into Elmer Fudd.
My biggest concern is that the Sheriff's statement might come back to haunt him, the sheriff's office, and the county in any subsequent legal action. And that would be a shame.
Come off your agenda for half a second Wildcard. Not all police shootings are hits
For anybody that has never been in the type of woods that they are talking about
These are thick tangles of palmetto, briar , kudzu and vines. You could be standing on top of someone and never know they were there.
I hunted that area many years ago, the last time I went out there there was a deer so close that I could hear it breathing but could not see any sign of it while standing above the brush on a dog box