Does a Lever Action Rifle jam?

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""Ok, so they're more accurate that a comparitably priced semi or bolt action? No. They're faster shooting than a semi? No. Ok....hmmm they hold more rounds than a semi...Nope. They're capable of longer ranges than a semi, bolt, or single shot? No... They're available in more calibers than a semi, single or bolt action? Nope...dang... They're capable of shooting higher powered rounds than....well I think you get the point. But if you can tell me something beneficial a lever gun can do that another gun equally priced can't do better, I'd be deeply impressed and even delete my comment."

Couching an argument in those kind of absolutist terms is not only a failure of reasoning, it's silly and easily picked apart.

Let's take a look...

"More accurate than a comparably priced semi- or bolt."

As noted above, the Browning BLR is more than capable of sub-MOA accuracy and can hold its own with most factory bolt rifles. Compare that to, oh, a comparably priced... AK clone? Most of those aren't capable of anything remotely close to sub MOA.

So, point one, failure.

"They're faster shooting than a semi? No"

This statement begs the question... just what are you shooting at that you apparently need to dump a full magazine to quickly? Are aimed shots to be eschewed in favor of dumping as much lead down range as wildly as possible?

And you also "conveniently" leave the bolt rifle out of this statement... why is that? Becuase you realize that OMG, the lever action is generally faster to operate than a bolt? By trying to gloss over that inconvenient truth, you've just shot yourself in the foot...

"Ok....hmmm they hold more rounds than a semi...Nope."

Once again, another silly statement that doesn't look at the entirety of the picture, and another one where the bolt action is "conveniently" left out. How many rounds does the Browning's BAR sporting rifle hold...

Let's see... 4 for standard cartridges, 3 for belted magnums, and 2 for the Winchester short magnums.

I can think of just about... EVERY lever action on the market today, including the Browning BLR, will match or beat that.

Another attempt at an absolute statement, and another absolute swing and a miss.

"They're capable of longer ranges than a semi, bolt, or single shot? No..."

Now this is just an incredibly foolish statement. Range is primarily a function of the cartridge/bullet combination.

Let's see... a bolt, a semi, and a lever action, all chambered for the .243 Winchester round, firing a 75 grain bullet, loaded to 3,300 fps.

Which one of those has the longer range?

Another swing, another miss.

"They're available in more calibers than a semi, single or bolt action? Nope...dang..."

If you actually put a little effort into it, you might find that the lever action as a class is available in a surprising number of offerings, ranging from the tiny .17 HRM all the way up to cartridges like the venerable .50-95 Winchester.

The true test, though, is whether the rifle YOU want at the time YOU want it is available in the cartridge YOU want.

"They're capable of shooting higher powered rounds than....well I think you get the point."

While this point has slightly more validity than any of your other points, once again, this boils down to a question of is the cartridge you want at the time you want it available in the platform that you want.

Given that for a time the Browning BLR was available in .338 Winchester, which is on the high end of the power spectrum for American rifle cartridges in any platform, once has to wonder just what you really want out of any rifle. Unless, of course, you're hunting whales, and I don't think there are any semi-auto, bolt, or lever action harpoon guns on the market right now.

"But if you can tell me something beneficial a lever gun can do that another gun equally priced can't do better, I'd be deeply impressed and even delete my comment."

And, once again, a false appeal of an absolutist nature, which fails not only on its face, but also in detail.

Personally, given how poorly contrived your argument was, I think you should, more than anything, delete it out of sheer mortification. :rolleyes:

I've seen some poorly contrived, broad brush arguments that fail in both general and in detail, in my decade plus here at TFL, but this one really is in a class all by itself.
 
Sure. We could play this game. But I'm not going to. You can believe that the lever gun is the pinnacle of man's success if you want John Wayne. I'm not going to argue something over and over again with the same exact arguments because a different cowboy steps up. Twist the words however you like, sunshine.
 
I'm not going to argue something over and over again with the same exact arguments because a different cowboy steps up.
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I think the problem here is that your argument that a lever action rifle isn't "better" at anything has been successfully refuted over and over. We get it, you don't like them. Those of us that use a rifle for things other than punching paper have other opinions.
 
I don't like them? Thats why I own and reload for a marlin 1895GS? Because I don't like it? Sure, 1 specific lever gun might be better than 1 specific whatever, at 1 certain thing. But the discussion wasn't "is the BLR better than the AR". You can always find a gun better than a lever. Apparently the levergun is your manhood and I'm insulting it by saying its not better than every other gun at everything. I'm not sure what koolaide you're drinking, but I'll stick to water. My argument hasn't even been challenged yet. I've been called narrow minded, short sighted, and absolute. But I'm not the one saying the levergun was the bestest gun ever and nothing compares.

Oh yeah, do you know what I DON'T own and and have never owned? An AR. But I'm planning a build for one so I should remedy that here soon(ish).
 
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Oh yeah?! Why didn't you answer me? I asked what exactly will any other rifle do that a lever action wont, bad tactics notwithstanding?

Answer it. :D
 
Hold more ammo, reload faster, shoot more accurately, further, handle larger cartridges with less recoil, have more readily available replacement parts, be easier to dissassemble and clean, have more after-market parts.... Pretty much, everything. Oh yeah, and more selection of rifle types AND ammo types across the board. I guess you haven't been following the post.

Oh yeah, and neither of your quotes were written bu lazarus long, he was a fictional character made up by Robert Heinlein. So they were written by Robert Heinlein.
 
"Hold more ammo, reload faster, shoot more accurately, further, handle larger cartridges with less recoil, have more readily available replacement parts, be easier to dissassemble and clean, have more after-market parts...."

OK, we've already demolished most of those false statements.

Just because you keep typing them doesn't make them true.

But, just to recap.

"Hold more ammo." So, a tube-fed Model 1892 style that takes 15 cartridges holds less ammo than a 5-round blind-box magazine bolt rifle like the Remington Model 700.

Really?


"Reload faster." So, a detachable box magazine fed lever-action rifle like a Savage 99C or a Browning BLR reloads more slowly than a "feed them in one at a time" 5-round blind-box magazine bolt rifle, or even a detachable box magazine fed AR-15?

Really?


"shoot more accurately" Ok, we've discussed this. How does a sub-MOA Browning BLR shoot LESS accurately than say an AK-47 clone?


"handle larger cartridges with less recoil"

OK, there's a smidgen of truth here. A semi-auto will absorbe some of the recoil force. But, as far as I've been able to determine, there are NO semi-automatics on the market that will handle the .45-70, the .50-95, the .50-110, etc.

So, part true, part false.

"have more readily available replacement parts"

Based on this statement I can only assume that you are trying to tell us that semi-automatics are unreliable and must be fixed regularly.

My Savage 99 has been going strong, without need for replacement parts, since 1936.

"be easier to dissassemble and clean"

Disassemble? OK, I'll give you that one.

Clean? I find it to be far easier to field clean my Savage 99 because I don't have to keep track of a bunch of detachable parts as I do on my SKS or my AR-15.

And, with my Savage, all I have to do to clean it is run a patch through the bore and swab the action body. NO DISASSEMBLY REQUIRED.

On my SKS or my AR? Parts and pieces everywhere because not only do I have to clean the barrel, I also have to worry about a gas system which, in the SKS, has half a dozen parts.

So, again, part true, and part false.

"have more after-market parts..."

Or, as my friend, well-known gunsmith Mac Scott of Scott McDougal Gunsmithing liked to call them, BOPOS.

That stands for Bolt On Pieces of Schmidt.

I suppose it someone wants to pretend to be a Tactical Power Ranger hanging everything from a flashlight to a deep fat fryer off the pickatinny rail it might be seen to be an advantage...

"I'm not going to argue something over and over again with the same exact arguments...."

What? Then how do you explain post 108, which is pretty much word for word and refuted concept for refuted concept for what you posted earlier?

So what next? Another claim that you won't "argue something over and over again wtih the same exact arguments" followed by copying and pasting 108 into a new post?

Just curious.

"Sure, 1 specific lever gun might be better than 1 specific whatever, at 1 certain thing. But the discussion wasn't "is the BLR better than the AR"."

No, it's not.

But your argument is nothing more than "all lever guns are EXACTLY the same."

Because you fail to acknowledge that there is HUGE variety in lever guns in terms of design, magazine systems, cartridge capacities, chamberings, accuracy potentials, etc., your arguments are an immediate failure.

It's as if you've seen one car in your life, a red Ford sedan, and from that you draw the conclusion that ALL cars are red Ford sedans, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will deter you from that markedly false assumption.


"You can believe that the lever gun is the pinnacle of man's success if you want John Wayne."

Steady, semi-problomatic. You may wish to refer to TFL Rule 3 before you continue in that vein.
 
Ok. You can point out how x lever does more than x whatever. And I could point out 50 guns that do better than whatever you're trying to prove. Case in point: your tube fed 1892 holds less rounds (half in fact) than a AK, AR, ACR, FN 2000, SIG 556, Kel-tec, pretty much anything based off a modern military rifle. But not only that, its less accurate, slower to reload, harder to maintain, and does not have near the after market support as ANY of the above mentioned rifles. So thanks again for proving my point. ANY lever you choose to spout with its 1 feature you're trying to showcase will not measure up to hundreds of other firearms in different actions. No, its not fair. But thats kind my point.

I never said all levers were the same. But, simply put, any lever is outdone by another rifle. Every lever you choose to name as an example I can pick dozens, if not more, rifles of different actions that can do "it" better. Sure, you can say a BLR is more accurate than an AK. But your BLR holds just as many rounds as a bolt action, and isn't as accurate. Sure, your 1892 may hold more rounds than a bolt action, but not more than an AR platform. Plus, to hold those 15 rounds, you're using pistol cartridges, not rifle cartridges. And if you want to get into cleaning, a gas piston set-up on a nickle upper doesn't need to be cleaned either. There's people who've shot these systems with 6000+ rounds without cleaning or a jam, or any type of lube. Look it up.

And your ability to grasp the argument is the only failure.
 
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As far as the original point, yes they can jam , but....

I haven't had a round stick in the tube in years ....it ain't rocket surgery to remove the end plug and clean it every few years. Any dirty mag can jam

Few that slipped under the feed ramp were my bad.... soft cycling it so I didn't have to chase the empties for reloading

Some very wide metaplats have had issues finding the chamber.... not all wide flat tips work in all levers... no shortage of bullets that work well

Most recently I've experienced the last round of Hornady's FTX doesn't slide up the feed ramp well in some older models. Issue with rubber tip sticking to center of concave follower. If the 7th shot is that important load lead or get another follower


As to this other nonsense, spray and pray ain't legal for hunting in PA. Three round max at State rifle ranges(six pistol). You can't give me a hunting rifle with a mag that sticks out and doesn't tuck under the arm well.... hands on carry all day for the brush.
 
The ONLY thing I'm trying to "prove" is that your statements regarding lever actions are so overly broad and general as to be largely meaningless and, as can be demonstrated through multiple examples, false.

What's worse is that you clearly know of these differences and how your statements are false, but you insist on perpetuating this one equals all argument, quickly going from venial to unpardonable.

"And I could point out 50 guns that do better than whatever you're trying to prove."

So, you ARE capable of discerning and differentiating the capabilies of SOME types of firearms, but you're not capable of doing that with lever actions?

So there is a very faint glimmer of hope that you're capable of admitting that not every lever action is an exact copy of every other lever action.

Whether or not you'll do that remains to be seen.


"So thanks again for proving my point."

If your point is that you're making a conscious decision to abandon a delimited, cogent argument based on known variations and capabilies in myriad firearms designs, I guess I have very successfully made your "point."

Unfortunately, it's a point that does not reflect well on you.

Otherwise, your arguments are so far out in the weeds as to be lost forever.
 
Sorry sir but you just have a lot of misconceptions and it appears as though you cannot be reasoned with. Your mind is made up, maybe you should quit.


I don't like them? Thats why I own and reload for a marlin 1895GS? Because I don't like it?
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You certainly come off as a levergun hater!!!


And I could point out 50 guns that do better than whatever you're trying to prove.
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Better for what, exactly?


But not only that, its less accurate, slower to reload, harder to maintain, and does not have near the after market support as ANY of the above mentioned rifles.
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Less accurate than an AK? Uh, you wanna compare prices between your average levergun and the ACR, FS2000 and SIG556, not to mention your average AR. Your average AR, I might add, that is chambered in a varmint round. :rolleyes:


You're really all over the place with this. No rifle is perfect and no one here has suggested that the levergun is. While you contend that a levergun is NEVER better than other guns for ANY purpose, you also admit their advantages over some guns.
"Sure, you can say a BLR is more accurate than an AK."
"Sure, your 1892 may hold more rounds than a bolt action, but not more than an AR platform."
 
I am just a little curious. I have read many discussions about semi-automatic weapons stove piping etc. I have experienced an M16 misfeeding because of the pitiful maintenance done on the mags that were loaded for us. But I can't recall any stories of a lever action jambing or having a feeding malfunction. Is the lever action as dependable as a revolver? Would having a lever action over a semi-automatic be a sensible decision. Of course, an AR has a multitude of high capacity mags available, while the highest capacity lever action will usually be 10 or 12 rounds. But which one can be trusted to always perform when needed?

Origional post, in case all of you forgot.

Would having a lever action over a semi-automatic be a sensible decision.

Of course, an AR has a multitude of high capacity mags available, while the highest capacity lever action will usually be 10 or 12 rounds.

I have experienced an M16 misfeeding because of the pitiful maintenance done on the mags that were loaded for us.

Of course, that last statement doesn't make much sense...who loads mags for you? And who does maintenence on mags? We always loaded our own and tossed the bad ones.....

Yes, my mind is made up that there are better rifles than lever guns. More to the point, there are better guns for the OP.

Now, if you take is first questions, and match them with a later comment about why he wanted a rifle: "the call to arms" AND the fact that he only owns pistols, one can logically conclude that he's not looking for bambi in thick brush or trying to imitate john wayne in a SASS compitition. And since he already had experience with an M16...

Do you suggest the 1892 vintage, or something a little newer?

If the OP had asked, whats the best gun to hunt grizzly, elephant, and white tail, then certainly I'd of pointed hom towards an 1895. If he'd of wanted to know whats the best rifle to shoot pistol cartridges out of, then certainly some rossi knock off. But thats just not what this discussion is about folks. Its not which lever is best for him, or which lever cartridge should he choose.

Sure, you can get a nail in a board with a pipe wrench. But why not use a hammer?
 
Regardless of who is right about what and wrong about which, this thread has veered way away from being helpful to the OP.
 
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