Do you support the war in Iraq?
- Thread starter TX_RGR
- Start date
OneInchGroup
New member
War Sucks
And of course you speak from experience, having been in a war, somewhere, at some time? Or are you just another expert basing your statements on having watched "Saving Private Ryan" on TV?
And of course you speak from experience, having been in a war, somewhere, at some time? Or are you just another expert basing your statements on having watched "Saving Private Ryan" on TV?
Simple fact: The more civilians you kill, the more propaganda ammo you give to Al Qaeda. It does their recruiting for them and undermines our position that we're in Iraq to help the Iraqi people. Suicide terrorists are foreigners who came to Iraq because of a unique opportunity created by chaos and a power vacuum. They are using the Iraqi people as human shields and hostages. They WANT us to blow away innocent Iraqis and destroy our image in the world. It's a sticky mess. Who said it was going to be easy? Well... Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle...
As for the native insurgency, the Sunnis, did anyone think it was too easy and suspicious that the Iraqi army just "melted away" immediately following the invasion? Did we really win a decisive victory in the first round? Or were we caught napping as the war slipped underground and became the nightmare that we're now in?
As for the native insurgency, the Sunnis, did anyone think it was too easy and suspicious that the Iraqi army just "melted away" immediately following the invasion? Did we really win a decisive victory in the first round? Or were we caught napping as the war slipped underground and became the nightmare that we're now in?
Hmmmmm . . . .
This is one of my more conflicted issues when I think about it. One of the reasons I try not to
On the one hand, the US had viable intelligence that Iraq had WMDs. Several intelligence agencies around the world agreed with the CIA. Furthermore, The US has a chance to do something groundbreaking in the Middle East.
Create a democratic, Arab, non-radical government. Someone, who while they may not love us, won't hate us. By establishing this government, that would respect individual freedoms while not seeming to be completely westernized, the rest of region could realize its possible. People wouldn't have to turn to people like the Taliban in order to get rid of someone like the Shah.
With another Middle Eastern ally, the US could put quite a bit of pressure on Israel to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the cherry on the sundae would be, hopefully, a drop in gas prices at home.
On the other hand, this has the making of Vietnam written all over it. It hasn't gotten there yet, but it could. The cost of this war is getting higher and higher, both in money and bodies. The military can't fill its ranks with the adequate amount of soldiers leading to a possible draft.
I think the Bush Admin. is making another mistake by setting a date for a pull out. I hope the Iraqis are ready to step up.
This is one of my more conflicted issues when I think about it. One of the reasons I try not to
On the one hand, the US had viable intelligence that Iraq had WMDs. Several intelligence agencies around the world agreed with the CIA. Furthermore, The US has a chance to do something groundbreaking in the Middle East.
Create a democratic, Arab, non-radical government. Someone, who while they may not love us, won't hate us. By establishing this government, that would respect individual freedoms while not seeming to be completely westernized, the rest of region could realize its possible. People wouldn't have to turn to people like the Taliban in order to get rid of someone like the Shah.
With another Middle Eastern ally, the US could put quite a bit of pressure on Israel to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the cherry on the sundae would be, hopefully, a drop in gas prices at home.
On the other hand, this has the making of Vietnam written all over it. It hasn't gotten there yet, but it could. The cost of this war is getting higher and higher, both in money and bodies. The military can't fill its ranks with the adequate amount of soldiers leading to a possible draft.
I think the Bush Admin. is making another mistake by setting a date for a pull out. I hope the Iraqis are ready to step up.
Ben Swenson
New member
The British took Palestine - an area which has been called Canaan, Israel, Judea, Filistin among other names - from the Ottoman Empire with the support of the Arabs. In 1923, the British split their mandate down the Jordan river and restricted the Jews to the west side. The east side of the mandate was given to Emir Abdullah (from what would become Saudi-Arabia) and named Trans-Jordan and later renamed to Jordan. Trans-Jordan took 75% or so of "Palestine" to be the Arab-Palestinian state. The remaining section that became Israel in 1948 was the only part of the former British mandate where Jews were still allowed.
The rest of the history of the area is just as interesting.
With regards to the War in Iraq, I don't think it is worth the lives of Americans, nor the cost of the war to free the Iraqi people. Sorry, I just don't care enough, and I'm unwilling to go to war to free every oppressed country. I used to defend the war, but I just can't anymore.
Mid-knight
Inactive
Well said, Butch50. But being left or right of the middle isn't like a light switch. There are varying degrees of each. I know right wingers opposed to this war, and lefties who support it. Me, I couldn't tell you how big a groan I let out when the war was declared. Saw where it was headed a long time ago. Simpletons are easily mislead by ideological slogans, catch phrases and simple ideas, all of which were used to sell this war. Fear and terror? Yeah, I'm afraid of how totalitarian my government is becoming in the name of "doing good". We are becoming the monster Bush promised to destroy. You'd think after everyone had been suckered by commercial/consumer snowjobs that they'd pick up on the clues that they were being "sold" something. Something that has been sold before.
Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
Those that deny they are repeating the lessons of history are doomed to eat crow, someday.
Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
Those that deny they are repeating the lessons of history are doomed to eat crow, someday.
Okay so a "democratic" government is set up in ravaged Iraq, a government by the people for the people and this governement is voted out for it's part in supporting the war and a new government is voted in by the overwhelming majority who feel as though they have suffered at the hands of what they perceive to be a reign of terror by that great power of the west. Are'nt we back to square one anyway.
I am for democracy also but do these people want it in the way that it is being set up? Are they willing to pay the price that it is costing now? Do they see it as a true democratic system or just another type of oppression now wondering if what they have always feared about the west is now being realized in a real way to them?
For a long time owing to historic events, interwooven within the culture and religion (I think the two are one) of Middle easterners is a fear of the west and though times have changed and religious persecution has somewhat halted these people who for the most part live cut off from the west (except for the rich) form their opinions based on data from propaganda material and media. Now they are "liberated", a chance to see the truth about what they have feared. Is it a good idea to justify their fears, and hope that the creation of a seeming democracy will erase the memories of children and women being blown to pieces?
I am for democracy also but do these people want it in the way that it is being set up? Are they willing to pay the price that it is costing now? Do they see it as a true democratic system or just another type of oppression now wondering if what they have always feared about the west is now being realized in a real way to them?
For a long time owing to historic events, interwooven within the culture and religion (I think the two are one) of Middle easterners is a fear of the west and though times have changed and religious persecution has somewhat halted these people who for the most part live cut off from the west (except for the rich) form their opinions based on data from propaganda material and media. Now they are "liberated", a chance to see the truth about what they have feared. Is it a good idea to justify their fears, and hope that the creation of a seeming democracy will erase the memories of children and women being blown to pieces?
Last edited:
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Yeah you sure are independent thinkers... some of you sound like a bunch of comparative religion/world diplomacy/flower power professors from Berkeley.
We fought WWII for the same reason we fought Vietnam and WWI - to keep a power balance or increase our own. We fought Vietnam and Korea to stop the communists from becoming to powerful, which may or may not have failed, really not for me to say. We fought WWII to stop the Germans from becoming a superpower, and towards the end we fought harder and faster to limit Soviet expansion. We supplied the Afghani rebels with arms and equipment to limit Soviet expansion, and perhaps to avenge Vietnam.
We aren't fighting this war for humanitarian reasons, just get over it, not everything we do has to be moral and Christian or whatever your religion is. And to all those that blindly oppose it, you're just as bad.
Please tell me, why do YOU think we fought WWII? To save the Jewish race from being exterminated? To end the suffering of the French? Most Americans were against going to war until Pearl Harbor. Did we fight in Vietnam to help those poor South Vietnamese, many of whom were leaning towards communism anyway? Looking back at those wars its clear why we fought, just transfer that clarity to this war.
If we can help Iraqis while we expand our power/economy and secure our future, then that is great. In case its not clear, I am for the war, for all the true reasons.
We fought WWII for the same reason we fought Vietnam and WWI - to keep a power balance or increase our own. We fought Vietnam and Korea to stop the communists from becoming to powerful, which may or may not have failed, really not for me to say. We fought WWII to stop the Germans from becoming a superpower, and towards the end we fought harder and faster to limit Soviet expansion. We supplied the Afghani rebels with arms and equipment to limit Soviet expansion, and perhaps to avenge Vietnam.
We aren't fighting this war for humanitarian reasons, just get over it, not everything we do has to be moral and Christian or whatever your religion is. And to all those that blindly oppose it, you're just as bad.
Please tell me, why do YOU think we fought WWII? To save the Jewish race from being exterminated? To end the suffering of the French? Most Americans were against going to war until Pearl Harbor. Did we fight in Vietnam to help those poor South Vietnamese, many of whom were leaning towards communism anyway? Looking back at those wars its clear why we fought, just transfer that clarity to this war.
If we can help Iraqis while we expand our power/economy and secure our future, then that is great. In case its not clear, I am for the war, for all the true reasons.
Try this out.
Terrorist leadership does not actually want to "win". If they "won" then they would have to take over the country and it's administration; which would be too much like working for a living, and they would find themselves the target of the next generation of terrorists. What they want is a "perpetual war" that gives them what they have now. Power of a certain kind. Respect of certain people. The ability to live life without ever working or growing up.
The lower (hands on the bomb button) echelons of course are just morons who are being manipulated into killing themselves for some perceived glory or another - nothing new under the sun is there?
Our getting involved with cretins of that nature is tantamount to crawling down into the mud with a pig to wrestle with it. I say let them have their pig pen.
If we applied the same level of effort and money sealing our borders as we are wasting in Iraq, then I would feel that we have done something worthwhile.
Terrorist leadership does not actually want to "win". If they "won" then they would have to take over the country and it's administration; which would be too much like working for a living, and they would find themselves the target of the next generation of terrorists. What they want is a "perpetual war" that gives them what they have now. Power of a certain kind. Respect of certain people. The ability to live life without ever working or growing up.
The lower (hands on the bomb button) echelons of course are just morons who are being manipulated into killing themselves for some perceived glory or another - nothing new under the sun is there?
Our getting involved with cretins of that nature is tantamount to crawling down into the mud with a pig to wrestle with it. I say let them have their pig pen.
If we applied the same level of effort and money sealing our borders as we are wasting in Iraq, then I would feel that we have done something worthwhile.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Did you read my post? We aren't fighting this war to stop terrorism. Despite what many believe, the higher echelons of government aren't all that stupid, they know they can't stop terrorism by invading countries left and right.
North Texan
New member
I voted against the war, now I'm voting for it.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But that is actually about how I feel. I have no problem with us in Afghanistan, because it was an obvious threat that needed to be dealt with. Iraq, I'm not so sure about. I wasn't sure they had WMD's or were capable of obtaining them. If they did have them, my guess is Saddam would have been like little Kim of North Korea, trying to make his pathetic little country seem like a world power. I also wasn't real sure about all that much terrorist activity in Irag. But we're there now, and hindsight is 50/50, so I say we should stay there and try to keep from botching up the job like we have others in the not so distant past. Deposing a dictator and leaving would be like giving terrorist an open invitation to set up a radical form of government like they did in Afghanistan.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But that is actually about how I feel. I have no problem with us in Afghanistan, because it was an obvious threat that needed to be dealt with. Iraq, I'm not so sure about. I wasn't sure they had WMD's or were capable of obtaining them. If they did have them, my guess is Saddam would have been like little Kim of North Korea, trying to make his pathetic little country seem like a world power. I also wasn't real sure about all that much terrorist activity in Irag. But we're there now, and hindsight is 50/50, so I say we should stay there and try to keep from botching up the job like we have others in the not so distant past. Deposing a dictator and leaving would be like giving terrorist an open invitation to set up a radical form of government like they did in Afghanistan.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
It's expanding our power by giving us a large base of operations in the Middle East, its expanding our economy by fueling the military industrials and many other industries, and its securing our future because we expanded our power and expanded our economy. Years from now when oil starts becoming very very hard to find, I don't want the Middle Eastern countries to charge exorbitant fees for the oil, why pay for the milk when you can fight the cow and steal it?
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
"I voted against the war, now I'm voting for it."
Thank you, North Texan-neighbor! I'm about the same way you are about this thing. We are there, lets take the trash to the curb and teach Iraqis with some sense to run a democratic government and we can move along.
Bad thing with these terrorists
If you talk to them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you make treaties with them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to ignore them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to send a few cruise missiles at them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to chase them down and lose a few people, and pull back, they come back and try to kill you.
Somewhere in that mess, there is a common thread. If we must go overseas and kick over some ant piles, that to me is preferable to waiting until they get strong enough to hit us again. People think that somehow, if we ignore them and only chase the fighters-not their infrastructure and people financing them as well, things will be okay. It would not surprise me if Hammas, Al Quieda and the rest of them were not scheming together in a loosely based alliance.
The only way I see a long term solution is to knock over some of these jerks in charge of countries who pay us lip service and send money to the terrorists, and help the people establish a decent government, then properly train and equip them to fight.
We could raise a huge military and scatter them like trading stamps all over the world, but we are better off letting the locals get a handle on it. They don't like to see their kids killed any more than we do.
Thank you, North Texan-neighbor! I'm about the same way you are about this thing. We are there, lets take the trash to the curb and teach Iraqis with some sense to run a democratic government and we can move along.
Bad thing with these terrorists
If you talk to them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you make treaties with them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to ignore them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to send a few cruise missiles at them, they come back and try to kill you.
If you try to chase them down and lose a few people, and pull back, they come back and try to kill you.
Somewhere in that mess, there is a common thread. If we must go overseas and kick over some ant piles, that to me is preferable to waiting until they get strong enough to hit us again. People think that somehow, if we ignore them and only chase the fighters-not their infrastructure and people financing them as well, things will be okay. It would not surprise me if Hammas, Al Quieda and the rest of them were not scheming together in a loosely based alliance.
The only way I see a long term solution is to knock over some of these jerks in charge of countries who pay us lip service and send money to the terrorists, and help the people establish a decent government, then properly train and equip them to fight.
We could raise a huge military and scatter them like trading stamps all over the world, but we are better off letting the locals get a handle on it. They don't like to see their kids killed any more than we do.
WOW! This turned into quite a thread. I aint been around in a few says, so I was impressed when I came back. I support this war and will continue to do so. I just respectfully disagree with those who don't. That doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong, I won't call you puss's whiners or hippie dope smokers, i just disagree. I agree with most points on the affirmative side, although some are a little different than mine . I believe there are WMD's. I don't know where they got to, but the whole world knows he had em. There was reportedly alot of truck traffic between there and Syria while we were pissin around getting all the "please sirs" and "by your leaves" taken care of. I think it was 14 months in the making, the invasion I mean. I know that to most folks 80 tons of any substance seems like a huge amount to move quickly, but I drive truck and I can tell you that is two heavy loads. Not much really.Another point is about the Israei, Palistinian question, I dont feel to bad for the poor palestinians dieing at an 8:1 ratio. if you willfully attack a much stronger enemy than yourself your probably gonna get the snot kicked out of you. I dont feel any worse for them than I would if some 110Lb punk came up and hit my 300Lb self with a stick he'd get whipped.As a military dad it does make my blood boil when people like dick durbin badmouth the troops. Its funny how "i support the troops but not the war" turns into F***k the troops. Thats what always happens. I guess I dont see what the antis plan would be. Myself I think Bush should just invite the bad people to come on in here and we can just do it in Omaha, and Cleveland or wherever. At least then there would be no question as to who or why we are fighting. 
First of all I dont get the part about the American Forces fighting harder to limit Soviet expansion...the divide of Germany was pretty much a done deal before the war ended. This is from the Yalta Conference "III. DISMEMBERMENT OF GERMANY
It was agreed that Article 12 (a) of the Surrender terms for Germany should be amended to read as follows:
"The United Kingdom, the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics shall possess supreme authority with respect to Germany. In the exercise of such authority they will take such steps, including the complete dismemberment of Germany as they deem requisite for future peace and security."
The rush was to end the war in Europe so we could allocate forces to the war with Japan. The ink was well dry before the end of the war in Europe as to who got what. Which was basically appeasing Russia
World War I - who the heck really knows, just those Europeans again doing silly stuff. We know this didnt really solve anything, because we had WW2 because of those idiotic French wanting harsh restrictions on Germany.
Korea....which was basically a draw fighting communist agression
Vietnam- because the idiot politicians forgot the lessons we learned in Korea put us on the downhill slide for a while.
The War in Iraq is probably a right war but at the wrong time. Colin Powell tried to put the brakes on the train driven by Cheny, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz and some of those other neocon blockheads. Told Bush hey if you start this war your gonna be like the bull in the china shop..you got to buy all the stuff you break. Now you think a guy who had worn 4 stars and had been the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and was one of the architects of the success in the Gulf war would be listened to......he had seen what Vietnam had done to this nation and our military and stayed on with guys like Shwarzkopf and some other to rebuild our military and ensure this never happened again.
Alas idiocy wins out over logic in our high levels of government once more. Rumsfeld tells Bush he wants total control of Iraq during and after the war. Well he got what he wished for.
The price that has been paid for the bull in the china shop is over 1800 dead sons and daughters of America. Thousands more wounded and disabled.
Thanks to that neocon train we own the war in Iraq lockstock and barrel and are stuck like chuck, like a a wolf with his foot caught in a trap. Somehow we have to figure out a way to win this for ourselves and getting all the people in Iraq to fight for thier country to make it succesful.
Time for a change to get some adult leadership in Washington to figure out how to win this war. The cost of the war is going to mean like the wolf we may have to chew our foot off and end up with a bloody stump.
So in an odd way I dont support the leadership running this war in Iraq. On the other hand what choice do we have since we bought the china shop? We are embroiled in a bitter war between the ideas of Western Civilization and Islamic fundamentalism. I sure a hell dont want to see a victory mark go up for Islamic Fundamentalists. Things will get decidely worse for us all if they win. This war is like a poker game between the us and the Islamic fundamentalists..Afghanistan left us holding a pretty good hand so we decided to go all in and the fundamentalists went all in too..... and we are still wating to see that last card turn over........
My dilemma is that this war has to be won but its gonna cost us...so far the only ones paying are the Troops in the field and thier families back home. There are a lot of Americans who dont have a clue and have not been effected by this war. While fellow Americans are dying and be wounded I have to watch all this Michael Jackson crap, ect, ect.....
My other part of the dilemma is that I dont trust the present administration to do that job and with the lives of our troops over there. Thier sacrice of life, blood, limbs, sweat and tears should mean that one day we see a Democratic Iraq and Afghanistan free of strife.
I am sure there are many of us standing on the top of the hill wondering which direction to take.... If the leadership doesnt open thier ears and listen sometime in the future we will be drifting over to the side that calls for and end to the war and thier idiocy.
thats all I got to say on that subject....