Do you support the war in Iraq?
- Thread starter TX_RGR
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Marko Kloos
Dead on target!
I seem to remember that Nixon promised during his re-election campaign that only he could get us out of Vietnam with honor. When the time came to withdraw with honor, we simply pulled out as fast as we could. Remember the scenes of the helicopters leaving thousands behind at the embassy? Remember the videos of the helicopters landing on the ships and being pushed off the side? Dignity? There is no dignity in war, in victory or in retreat. War is not about dignity.
We need to get out of Iraq today. We wont get out of Iraq for 50 years at best.
14 Marines killed today. For what?
Dead on target!
I seem to remember that Nixon promised during his re-election campaign that only he could get us out of Vietnam with honor. When the time came to withdraw with honor, we simply pulled out as fast as we could. Remember the scenes of the helicopters leaving thousands behind at the embassy? Remember the videos of the helicopters landing on the ships and being pushed off the side? Dignity? There is no dignity in war, in victory or in retreat. War is not about dignity.
We need to get out of Iraq today. We wont get out of Iraq for 50 years at best.
14 Marines killed today. For what?
Going with a response to the opening post, I do support and will continue to support the war.
Even with no WMD's, Iraq is going to make a nice place to jump off from when we need to deal with Iran.
Even if we don't deal with Iran, the Israels must. The Mullahs in Iran are sworn to destroy Israel.
Israel bombed the nuke plant back in the 60's (IIRC) that Iraq was building. We could always grant 'fly-over' rights
A word about the war and the loss of 20 US Marines over the past two days; WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS P.C. HIPPIE B.S..
We are there for better or worse, the military needs to be able to bomb what it wants, when it wants, and how it wants. If hot spots start disappearing off the map either one of these things will happen, and either one is acceptable as, in the end, fewer US servicemen & women will be dead.
1) Terrorists run out of gas and fold. Not saying they won't still be around, but if every time they stick there head out the hole they're in it gets shot off, they will mellow out.
2) Terrorist build insurections in other parts of the country. We start methodically wiping them out and sooner or later the 'Innocent Civilians' will start informing us as to terrorist movements. Religion or no, nobody (sane) wants to be dead.
Even with no WMD's, Iraq is going to make a nice place to jump off from when we need to deal with Iran.
Even if we don't deal with Iran, the Israels must. The Mullahs in Iran are sworn to destroy Israel.
Israel bombed the nuke plant back in the 60's (IIRC) that Iraq was building. We could always grant 'fly-over' rights
A word about the war and the loss of 20 US Marines over the past two days; WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS P.C. HIPPIE B.S..
We are there for better or worse, the military needs to be able to bomb what it wants, when it wants, and how it wants. If hot spots start disappearing off the map either one of these things will happen, and either one is acceptable as, in the end, fewer US servicemen & women will be dead.
1) Terrorists run out of gas and fold. Not saying they won't still be around, but if every time they stick there head out the hole they're in it gets shot off, they will mellow out.
2) Terrorist build insurections in other parts of the country. We start methodically wiping them out and sooner or later the 'Innocent Civilians' will start informing us as to terrorist movements. Religion or no, nobody (sane) wants to be dead.
CarbineCaleb
New member
Oh, you mean that little red dot that was named Palestine until 1948, when the Israelis renamed it Israel?
CarbineCaleb
New member
Wraith
According to the US State Department's latest human rights report (not some editorial like your source), in 2004:
So, those peace loving Israelis killed those savage Palestinians at a rate of approximately 8:1. I think that you will find that every year has found Israelis killing Palestinians in far greater numbers, for decades.
According to the US State Department's latest human rights report (not some editorial like your source), in 2004:
So, those peace loving Israelis killed those savage Palestinians at a rate of approximately 8:1. I think that you will find that every year has found Israelis killing Palestinians in far greater numbers, for decades.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was a little surprised at the results. I realize it is a gun forum, and gunowners tend to be more supportive of such things, and I'm not passing judgment or pushing a viewpoint or anything, but I thought it would be 50-50 at least. First one of you that asks me if that's 50% for or against gets it. 
thanks for your involvement, those that voted.
thanks for your involvement, those that voted.Butch50:
The 'PC' I refer to is sending 6 Marines one day, and 14 the next and get them all killed.
We (US govt) knew and knows this area is crawling with dug-in, terrorists by the 100's, if what I read is correct. Now I pay taxes, I paid for alot of very nice weaponry over the years, all I'm saying is USE THE DAMN THINGS.
There is absolutely no reason for US servicemen to die when heavy concentrations should be bombed or shelled off the map. The ground forces can go in after and mop up and count pieces.
The 'hippie' I refer to is the runnning theory, even in the Pentagon unfortunately, that the goal is to get the muslims to like us. I contend the purpose of any war is to win first and by any and all means to eliminate or at least mitigate US casulties. After we win, then we can patch up the schools, hospitals, etc. and leave; let their oil sales pay for the rest.
The 'PC' I refer to is sending 6 Marines one day, and 14 the next and get them all killed.
We (US govt) knew and knows this area is crawling with dug-in, terrorists by the 100's, if what I read is correct. Now I pay taxes, I paid for alot of very nice weaponry over the years, all I'm saying is USE THE DAMN THINGS.
There is absolutely no reason for US servicemen to die when heavy concentrations should be bombed or shelled off the map. The ground forces can go in after and mop up and count pieces.
The 'hippie' I refer to is the runnning theory, even in the Pentagon unfortunately, that the goal is to get the muslims to like us. I contend the purpose of any war is to win first and by any and all means to eliminate or at least mitigate US casulties. After we win, then we can patch up the schools, hospitals, etc. and leave; let their oil sales pay for the rest.
Bingo! for Mr. Kloos
how do you fight a war of ideaology with just military and win? you dont.
As far Israel that is just a minor minor side table issue on the war with terrorism.
the fundamentalist ideaology is that western civilization must be destroyed. Thats the bottom line. You could delete Israel from the map and the terrorists would still keep multiplying.
OneInchGroup
New member
Sort Them Out Later
Back in the day, before we got all PC thanks to the protest marching cowards here at home, the theory about the VC was "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" Long before that a little Democrat with a "Buck Stops Here" sign on his desk decided to end the war with Japan using that same theory. Rather than have our ground forces continue to walk around like silhouette targets day after day, waiting for the next bomb, it seems to me to be time to return to the old ugly American policies that used to work just dandy in getting our missions completed. We need to have the field commanders released to do actual tactical warfare; they shoot at us, we obliterate a couple square MILES of their "suspected terrorist strongholds". Do that a couple of times and we will have no more noise from these cowards. Nobody in the Muslim world has anything but hate for us anyway, so lets give them a good reason to not only hate us, but to fear us as well. The way old Ronnie Reagan prevailed with our cold war opponents was to always leave them wondering if he was just nuts enough to actually nuke their asses if they got him mad enough. If we make it a permanent policy to retaliate massively whenever one of them so much as flips us the bird, then we win, and they (and hopefully all the whiners in this country and others) will finally just shut the hell up. We are the only nation on earth with the military power to prevail over anybody else, if we just quit the PC crap and tell it like it is. Time to put out the word, "one of ours costs you 1,000 of yours." Who's going to keep fighting, once we act on that policy? (Just an opinion, from someone who saw us quit in VietNam too soon, snatching up a defeat from a conflict we had been consistently winning militarily, only to throw it away for politics)
Back in the day, before we got all PC thanks to the protest marching cowards here at home, the theory about the VC was "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" Long before that a little Democrat with a "Buck Stops Here" sign on his desk decided to end the war with Japan using that same theory. Rather than have our ground forces continue to walk around like silhouette targets day after day, waiting for the next bomb, it seems to me to be time to return to the old ugly American policies that used to work just dandy in getting our missions completed. We need to have the field commanders released to do actual tactical warfare; they shoot at us, we obliterate a couple square MILES of their "suspected terrorist strongholds". Do that a couple of times and we will have no more noise from these cowards. Nobody in the Muslim world has anything but hate for us anyway, so lets give them a good reason to not only hate us, but to fear us as well. The way old Ronnie Reagan prevailed with our cold war opponents was to always leave them wondering if he was just nuts enough to actually nuke their asses if they got him mad enough. If we make it a permanent policy to retaliate massively whenever one of them so much as flips us the bird, then we win, and they (and hopefully all the whiners in this country and others) will finally just shut the hell up. We are the only nation on earth with the military power to prevail over anybody else, if we just quit the PC crap and tell it like it is. Time to put out the word, "one of ours costs you 1,000 of yours." Who's going to keep fighting, once we act on that policy? (Just an opinion, from someone who saw us quit in VietNam too soon, snatching up a defeat from a conflict we had been consistently winning militarily, only to throw it away for politics)
Tell you what, OneInch.
Why don't we just kill everyone? Americans would have no problem with any foreigners if we simply declare genocide on the rest of the world. Immunize us, release a plague. No more debt, no more hate from Muslims, no more criticism from the UN.
That plan has all the "courage" you're looking for, and would actually reduce terrorism, unlike your idea which seems to put tactical wins well ahead of any sort of strategic logic.
Unless you're willing to permanently remove the people you're planning on pissing off, how exactly is escalating the civilian death toll going to slow down and quell the hate of the fastest growing population on earth?
Why don't we just kill everyone? Americans would have no problem with any foreigners if we simply declare genocide on the rest of the world. Immunize us, release a plague. No more debt, no more hate from Muslims, no more criticism from the UN.
That plan has all the "courage" you're looking for, and would actually reduce terrorism, unlike your idea which seems to put tactical wins well ahead of any sort of strategic logic.
Unless you're willing to permanently remove the people you're planning on pissing off, how exactly is escalating the civilian death toll going to slow down and quell the hate of the fastest growing population on earth?
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
"This is another fine mess you've gotten us into, Ollie"
From where I sit, this war is about what I expected.
Reagan pulled the Marines out of Lebanon after 200+ were killed in the truck bombing.
Clinton pulled the troops out of Somalia after a couple of dozen troops were killed there.
The world trade center is bombed back in the early 90's. We arrested a few, but never did follow the links back to its genesis.
Terrorist thoughts? Gee, we can do what we want, and if we kill a few Americans, they will go home. Sorry, Achmed-not this time. You called down the thunder, and we got lots of it for your sorry selves.
The terrorism in the M.E. has been going on for decades, and despite all the talking, all the UN resolutions, and all the negotiations, the attacks continue. Now, it has spilled over into the western world. The murdering terrorists are not going to stop, and pulling the troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan does nothing but encourage them to step up their operations.
The only way I see the murdering stopped is to establish democratic governments in the M.E. and let the people speak for a change. We have tried everything else, and talking to the bad guys does no good.
I recognise the fact that we have an extremist culture there who does not care about life, but what I do see are parents there who want their kids growing up in peace and relative safety. They do not want the extremists in charge any more than we do, but have lived under the gun from them or their governments for so long that they are afraid to speak up. To do so makes you a target.
IMO, Iraq and Afghanistan is only the beginning, and we have to do what we can to make it a success. As Iraq was not a theocratic government under Saddam, and given his excesses in brutality, I think the choice was one of the better ones.
Personally, I'd like to see Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and a few others get their butts handed to them for their support of the murderers, but that will take time. Meanwhile, every attack these people make is strengthening the case of going after them where they live, and those who support them.
I especially hate this war-I have a son there right now who recently pulled the charred body out of a Humvee in Samarra, and it turned out to be a soldier he knew, liked and respected. They identified the body only from a boot which had a dogtag attached. I'd rather have had him go on to pre-med school, but he made a choice and is a believer.
There might be a different view of whats going on over there if we could get a more balanced report of what is going on-not just the casualty lists, but the positives too.
From where I sit, this war is about what I expected.
Reagan pulled the Marines out of Lebanon after 200+ were killed in the truck bombing.
Clinton pulled the troops out of Somalia after a couple of dozen troops were killed there.
The world trade center is bombed back in the early 90's. We arrested a few, but never did follow the links back to its genesis.
Terrorist thoughts? Gee, we can do what we want, and if we kill a few Americans, they will go home. Sorry, Achmed-not this time. You called down the thunder, and we got lots of it for your sorry selves.
The terrorism in the M.E. has been going on for decades, and despite all the talking, all the UN resolutions, and all the negotiations, the attacks continue. Now, it has spilled over into the western world. The murdering terrorists are not going to stop, and pulling the troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan does nothing but encourage them to step up their operations.
The only way I see the murdering stopped is to establish democratic governments in the M.E. and let the people speak for a change. We have tried everything else, and talking to the bad guys does no good.
I recognise the fact that we have an extremist culture there who does not care about life, but what I do see are parents there who want their kids growing up in peace and relative safety. They do not want the extremists in charge any more than we do, but have lived under the gun from them or their governments for so long that they are afraid to speak up. To do so makes you a target.
IMO, Iraq and Afghanistan is only the beginning, and we have to do what we can to make it a success. As Iraq was not a theocratic government under Saddam, and given his excesses in brutality, I think the choice was one of the better ones.
Personally, I'd like to see Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and a few others get their butts handed to them for their support of the murderers, but that will take time. Meanwhile, every attack these people make is strengthening the case of going after them where they live, and those who support them.
I especially hate this war-I have a son there right now who recently pulled the charred body out of a Humvee in Samarra, and it turned out to be a soldier he knew, liked and respected. They identified the body only from a boot which had a dogtag attached. I'd rather have had him go on to pre-med school, but he made a choice and is a believer.
There might be a different view of whats going on over there if we could get a more balanced report of what is going on-not just the casualty lists, but the positives too.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Despite any rhetoric from the Palestinians as to their plight - Handy, do you find attacks specifically aimed at children and other civilians morally acceptable?
Do you think is correct to attack a school bus or put a bomb in a pizza place?
Don't answer with some rhetoric that the Israelis or the Americans have attacked civilians - that has happened. For the most part, we try to avoid such. If we did launch a cruise missile attack deliberately targeted at a Palestinian day care center, I think that is morally unacceptable.
Answer that to see if you have any credibility.
For the record, my kid missed being blown up in an attack on a passenger change by the Grace of God and her schedule a few years ago. A train she could have taken was blown up. Defend blowing up a child in such a manner.
Do you think is correct to attack a school bus or put a bomb in a pizza place?
Don't answer with some rhetoric that the Israelis or the Americans have attacked civilians - that has happened. For the most part, we try to avoid such. If we did launch a cruise missile attack deliberately targeted at a Palestinian day care center, I think that is morally unacceptable.
Answer that to see if you have any credibility.
For the record, my kid missed being blown up in an attack on a passenger change by the Grace of God and her schedule a few years ago. A train she could have taken was blown up. Defend blowing up a child in such a manner.
OneInchGroup
New member
Handy - Why Not Kill Everyone?
Ok Handy, I give up. Your plan would be what, pull out and see how long it takes for the radicals to drop by the house and blow up your garage?
All opponents of the USA since time immemorial have had it in their minds that all they had to do is keep bloodying our noses and we'd give up and go home, or the new President would turn out to be a sissy, so they could go right back to their original plan for world domination.
I'm not advocating genocide, except as it applies to folks that are actively doing their best to enact genocide against us. If we are not willing to take the conflict to them at the same level of intensity that they bring to the fight, then we need to just put our heads on the block and wait for the downrushing sword, because it will absolutely be coming right along.
Problem some of us have is we're members of the BTDT tribe, and know first hand what its like to be in a lethal argument with folks who will do literally ANYTHING to win and make us be the ones who die.
As a practical factual matter, one must remember that the .45 caliber pistol and other larger ones were developed specifically in response to the Thuggee, and other similarly highly motivated religious warriors who would not stop trying to kill us unless they were literally blown apart by our firepower.
Nothing has changed. Fighting an enemy willing to be blown to bits himself on the chance of killing a few of us is not going to be done under Marquis of Queensbury rules.
Ok Handy, I give up. Your plan would be what, pull out and see how long it takes for the radicals to drop by the house and blow up your garage?
All opponents of the USA since time immemorial have had it in their minds that all they had to do is keep bloodying our noses and we'd give up and go home, or the new President would turn out to be a sissy, so they could go right back to their original plan for world domination.
I'm not advocating genocide, except as it applies to folks that are actively doing their best to enact genocide against us. If we are not willing to take the conflict to them at the same level of intensity that they bring to the fight, then we need to just put our heads on the block and wait for the downrushing sword, because it will absolutely be coming right along.
Problem some of us have is we're members of the BTDT tribe, and know first hand what its like to be in a lethal argument with folks who will do literally ANYTHING to win and make us be the ones who die.
As a practical factual matter, one must remember that the .45 caliber pistol and other larger ones were developed specifically in response to the Thuggee, and other similarly highly motivated religious warriors who would not stop trying to kill us unless they were literally blown apart by our firepower.
Nothing has changed. Fighting an enemy willing to be blown to bits himself on the chance of killing a few of us is not going to be done under Marquis of Queensbury rules.
I didn't say pull out, but escalation is what turned Vietnam from something we could help the S. Vietnamese win into a full scale war we lost.
Much of the middle east is just watching to see what we do. If we concentrate on killing insurrectionists and avoiding civilians we are at least legitimately trying to stop terrorism.
If we are turning cities to glass, we're just carrying out a terror campaign of our own.
We're supposed to be rooting out terrorism, not inspiring it.
The unfortunate truth is that you can't do this kind of work without expending soldiers' lives. You can't weed a garden with a bulldozer, either.
Much of the middle east is just watching to see what we do. If we concentrate on killing insurrectionists and avoiding civilians we are at least legitimately trying to stop terrorism.
If we are turning cities to glass, we're just carrying out a terror campaign of our own.
We're supposed to be rooting out terrorism, not inspiring it.
The unfortunate truth is that you can't do this kind of work without expending soldiers' lives. You can't weed a garden with a bulldozer, either.
War Sucks
ANY war anywhere sucks, Iraq did not attack us we attacted them. I think we should NEVER go to war, risking innocent Americans lives, unless we are attacked by the offending party. And then we go to that party & crash it! Not all the other parties on the block, just the one who attaked US. Just MHO..."All you need is love, love, love is all you need."
ANY war anywhere sucks, Iraq did not attack us we attacted them. I think we should NEVER go to war, risking innocent Americans lives, unless we are attacked by the offending party. And then we go to that party & crash it! Not all the other parties on the block, just the one who attaked US. Just MHO..."All you need is love, love, love is all you need."
OneInchGroup
New member
"Make Love Not War" AGAIN?
Well, here we have it again. let's all preach moderation in all things, let's pretend we support the troops but not the war, and let's decide to ignore all the provocation and such that preceded our invasion of an otherwise peaceful pristine loving country run by little cuddly-bear Saddam and his two darling baby boys, who just sort of murdered a few hundred thousand Iraquis A YEAR FOR ENTERTAINMENT. Same guys who used to pay $20,000.00 death benefits to the families of the suicide bombers. Guess I can look for you guys to be in Jane Fonda's bus brigade against the war, right? Anybody know that when she made her famous tour of North Vietnam prison camps that our guys tried to pass her notes for their families, which she collected and then turned over to the jailers? Anybody know that at least 3 of our guys were subsequently tortured to death for that? Let's all try to emulate that brilliant play for peace in our time, OK? Nobody feels like backing our play in Iraq after we're in there, so let's just forget it and let them go back to Muslim extremist control, so the whole world will know we are not at all committed to growing any democracy but the one that gets our donuts to the store on time. I'm Outta Here. No point to further chat on this subject with this group.
Well, here we have it again. let's all preach moderation in all things, let's pretend we support the troops but not the war, and let's decide to ignore all the provocation and such that preceded our invasion of an otherwise peaceful pristine loving country run by little cuddly-bear Saddam and his two darling baby boys, who just sort of murdered a few hundred thousand Iraquis A YEAR FOR ENTERTAINMENT. Same guys who used to pay $20,000.00 death benefits to the families of the suicide bombers. Guess I can look for you guys to be in Jane Fonda's bus brigade against the war, right? Anybody know that when she made her famous tour of North Vietnam prison camps that our guys tried to pass her notes for their families, which she collected and then turned over to the jailers? Anybody know that at least 3 of our guys were subsequently tortured to death for that? Let's all try to emulate that brilliant play for peace in our time, OK? Nobody feels like backing our play in Iraq after we're in there, so let's just forget it and let them go back to Muslim extremist control, so the whole world will know we are not at all committed to growing any democracy but the one that gets our donuts to the store on time. I'm Outta Here. No point to further chat on this subject with this group.