Do you support the war in Iraq?

Do you support the war in Iraq?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 166 65.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 84 32.9%
  • Undecided/Don't Know/Don't care.

    Votes: 5 2.0%

  • Total voters
    255
Has anyone else realized that Afghanistan and Iraq are effectively U.S. military outposts in the Middle East? We have airfields and flyover privileges that can't be withdrawn on a whim by the local governments. Does anyone realize the value of having military bases like that in places like that? Might be worthwhile to watch the news and wonder what's going on in countries that neighbor Iraq and Afghanistan...

They certainly could be useful if we invade Syria and/or Iran. I sure hope we don't though because we will be stretched thinner over more area and have just exactly what we have now except on a larger scale, with more deaths. If we want to bomb Iran's nuke facilities, we can do that easily enough without having bases over there.

If we were going to take over the oil fields I would yell hallelujah and go get em - bases would be useful for that. We aren't going to though so those bases are going to be about as important as the bases in Germany are right now - cost us a lot and don't accomplish anything.

butch50,
How long do you think public opinion would support such a visible and massive endeavor?

John, we are old friends now, you can just call me Butch. :) I am a poor barometer for public opinion. I am often not in the mainstream. My guess is though that the American public would absolutely love it, and would never tire of it. I say that because I would love it and never tire of it. It would be a Very Good Thing.

Besides, with today's technology you don't have to be inside the borders to make a mess.
True, but it sure puts a limit on what they can do if they have to take their shots from outside.
 
True, but it sure puts a limit on what they can do if they have to take their shots from outside.
Maybe 50 years ago it would have...not now. We live in interesting times.

One more thing to think about and then I'm quitting. Remember the axis of evil? Ever wondered why those three countries and only those three countries made the list?
 
a positive for the war in Iraq is that it is acting as a "terrorists sink",
Yea, just like the Little Big Horn was a heat sink for Indians. Maybe that was part of Custer's plan but I doubt it. His 200+ troopers more than likely would have thought it was a faulty plan with a liberal dose of BS added in. We will never know since they were all killed.

Meanwhile the Iraqi politicians are asking for another extension for the creation of their Constitution. But fear not, they will have a Constitution one day and then that's when the real problems start like defending it. Hopefully there are enough Iraqis who will care so that American troops don't have to die for someone else's Bill of Rights.
 
The real lessons of Vietnam have yet to be learned.

Vietnam and Iraq: has the U.S. learned anything?

Professor Gabriel Kolko is a leading historian of modern warfare. He wrote 'Century of War: Politics, Conflicts and Society Since 1914' and, in 2002, 'Another Century of War?'

"the U.S. has ignored many of the lessons of the traumatic Vietnam experience and is today repeating many of the errors that produced defeat."

The Pentagon in the 1960s had an uncritical faith in its overwhelming firepower, its modern equipment, mobility, and mastery of the skies. It still does, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld believes the military has the technology to "shock and awe" all adversaries. America's leaders have time and again believed what they wanted, not what their intelligence told them.

"war in Vietnam, as in Iraq, was highly decentralized and the number of troops required only increased even as the firepower became greater. When they reached a half-million Americans in Vietnam the public turned against the President and defeated his party."

"In both Vietnam and Iraq the public was mobilized on the basis of cynical falsehoods which ultimately backfired, causing "credibility gap." People eventually ceased to believe anything Washington told them."

Many American leaders really believed that if the Communists won in Vietnam the "dominoes" would fall and all Southeast Asia would fall under Chinese and Soviet domination. The Tonkin Gulf crisis of August 1964 was manufactured, as the CIA's leading analyst later admitted in his memoir, because "the administration was seeking a pretext for a major escalation." The Iraq War was justified because Hussein was alleged to have weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al-Qaeda, but no evidence for either allegation has been found.

"Iraqization" of the military force required to put down dissidents will not accomplish what has eluded the Americans, and in both Vietnam and Iraq the U.S. underestimated the length of time it would have to remain and cultivated illusions about the strength of its friends.

The Iraqi army was disbanded but now is being partially reconstituted by utilizing Hussein's officers and enlisted men. As in Vietnam, where the Buddhists opposed the Catholics who comprised the leaders America endorsed, Iraq is a divided nation regionally and religiously, and Washington has the unenviable choice between the risks of disorder which its own lack of troops make likely and civil war if it arms Iraqis. Personal prediction: When the constitution is adopted, expect a major increase in insurgent attacks. The situation WILL get worse in Iraq, NOT better.
Rumsfeld's admission in his confidential memo "we lack the metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror" was an indication that key members of the Bush Administration are far less confident of what they are doing than they were early in 2003.

The real lessons of Vietnam have yet to be learned....it's not Vietnam, it's not Vietnam, it's not Vietnam....
 
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One more thing to think about and then I'm quitting. Remember the axis of evil? Ever wondered why those three countries and only those three countries made the list?

John, have not thought that much about it in those terms. What's your take?

"war in Vietnam, as in Iraq, was highly decentralized and the number of troops required only increased even as the firepower became greater. When they reached a half-million Americans in Vietnam the public turned against the President and defeated his party."

Maybe this is picking flydung out of the pepper, but as I recall Nixon ended the war in Vietnam after he was re-elected.

I don't believe that the reasoning behind this article is entirely sound.

If you divide the war in Iraq into two phases - War and Occupation - we definitely learned the lessons of Vietnam because we won the war in Iraq in a most un-Veitnam like fashion. Had we fought Vietnam in the style we fought Iraq we would have won Vietnam quickly and decisively. In Vietnam we did not actually get to the Occupation part as we have in Iraq; because we did not win the war there.

In Iraq, the problems we have now with terrorists is either a second Iraq war, or a problem of Occupation. We have not had much experience with this form of Occupation and the terrorist problems that we are having.

Yea, just like the Little Big Horn was a heat sink for Indians. Maybe that was part of Custer's plan but I doubt it. His 200+ troopers more than likely would have thought it was a faulty plan with a liberal dose of BS added in. We will never know since they were all killed.

There is not much comparison between one supremely ill-advised battle fought under the poor leadership of a (potentially psychotically) vain general, and the occupation of a foreign land on the other side of the globe.
 
I should know better than to step into this one, but this one lie keeps REALLY bugging me.


The media and the libs love to keep saying "there were no WMD's in Iraq, therefore Bush lied."

Well, what did we find in Iraq?

* Labs for the production of chemical and biological weapons. We talked to scientists who worked there and defected. So we know they were actively producing, and not just studying, these agents.

* Warheads--for the delivery of chemical and bilogical agents. No, they didn't have agents in them. They were just designed to deliver them. They were "unloaded."

* Delivery mechanisms--we found trucks, missles and shells designed to deliver chemical and biological agents.

So what did we NOT find? Finished goods inventory.

What DID we find? All the necessary components. As far as I'm concerned, that IS finding weapons of mass destruction. They just weren't assembled.

And I consider this mantra that we did not find WMD's to be a lie.
 
What DID we find? All the necessary components. As far as I'm concerned, that IS finding weapons of mass destruction. They just weren't assembled.

Please provide sources for the weaponry and labs and personnel interviews.

My understanding is that we did not find WMDs. Empty shell casings, how many and in what condition?

Actually I don't see the WMDs being there or not, as a fundamental issue. Call it faulty intelligence and forget about it. Question is, why are we STILL there?
 
What DID we find? All the necessary components. As far as I'm concerned, that IS finding weapons of mass destruction. They just weren't assembled.
Having the component (a brain) does not mean you are a genius. Having the components for WMD also does not mean you possess WMD either. If that were the case, most high school or college chemistry classes and most medical research departments would possess WMD and our war on terror would be hopeless. Even starting the draft wouldn't create a large enough army to protect us.

The Vietnam War escalated under LBJ, by 1968 the people of the US were so displeased with Vietnam, and LBJ was so discouraged that he refused to accept his party's the nomination for President of the United States for a 2nd term. He knew at that time (as did McNamara) we would lose in Vietnam and he knew he would lose the election. LBJ also knew he would be the first American President to lose a war. Nixon ran and won based on a "Peace with honor" platform and the withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam. Hubert was LBJ's Vice President but there was no escape for him from his connection with LBJ and the Vietnam War. Upon reflection, it certainly was Hubert Humphrey and the democratic who actually lost the '68 election. I stand corrected.
 
The thing about Nixon is that he didn't end the war in his first term. He ended it in his second term. He ran for re-election with a platform plank that "only he could get us out of Vietnam with honor". In 1972 he got us out of Vietnam, but I often wonder if he made the decision years in advance and instead of pulling out, delayed the pull out to help insure re-election.
 
I often wonder if he made the decision years in advance and instead of pulling out, delayed the pull out to help insure re-election.
No doubt in my mind it's politics just as LBJ and McNamara stayed in Vietnam even through they KNEW we couldn't win. Bush's pride is why he is motivated to "stay the course" even through he is starting to look and sound more and more foolish in the eyes and ears of the World and the majority of Americans.
 
I voted no and this statement posted above says it all for me.

Did I support the president when we went in? Yes.
Do I support the president for keeping our boys there now? No.
Why? Because in my mind nation building is not worth the lives of American soldiers.

I believe that there were WMD in Iraq, we just didn't find them in time. This is not an issue as far as I'm concerned. I just don't think Iraq is worth what it is costing us at this point in time.
 
Yes!

I would also support a war in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt just to round it out. Better a thousand young men die now than a million in ten years. Like it or not, this IS a religious war brought on by the Muslims. My only regret is that I am 55 years old and the Marine recruiter told me no when I asked on 9/11 if I could re join. I fought in the wrong d**n war!

What we need in Iraq is a large dose of Gen. Patton diplomicy. Friggin press has turned this country into a bunch of p***ys! Any ya'll been in a good old fashion bar fight? Kick 'em in the b**ls and then when they're bent over, kick 'em in the face! Christ, lets at least win this one! We've got to!!
 
Yes!

I would also support a war in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt just to round it out. Better a thousand young men die now than a million in ten years. Like it or not, this IS a religious war brought on by the Muslims. My only regret is that I am 55 years old and the Marine recruiter told me no when I asked on 9/11 if I could re join. I fought in the wrong d**n war!

What we need in Iraq is a large dose of Gen. Patton diplomicy. Friggin press has turned this country into a bunch of p***ys! Any ya'll been in a good old fashion bar fight? Kick 'em in the b**ls and then when they're bent over, kick 'em in the face! Christ, lets at least win this one! We've got to!!

There are aprox 1.2 Billion muslims...which is 22% of the worlds population. If you want to kill them all better form your own army and start pretty soon because they are increasing faster that the birth rate of the planet.
 
"There are aprox 1.2 Billion muslims...which is 22% of the worlds population. If you want to kill them all better form your own army and start pretty soon because they are increasing faster that the birth rate of the planet."

1.2bn... better get a top-notch reloading press or a high-paying job... and a few trucks to carry the goods...

The trouble is that the Muslim folk haven't been thoroughly feminized. Make 'em give women the right to vote and they're practically neutered from there on out.
 
Butch

Sorry I haven't been near a computer for a week now......... Just got in and checked my fan mail.......... ;) I see you enjoyed my short work?

I just have to ask a few questions of you sir:

Have you ever served in the military service of this nation?

Do you argue with tree stumps? ;) just kidding don't get mad.......


If I had time and energy I would explain a few things that I feel you took and twisted around a little back on the 20th. Then I remembered the wise and smart thoughts once told to me by an old man..... He said sometimes it's the smartest man that stops talking........ That said, I shall listen and no longer respond........ Just not worth the time and work when I know it's fruitless.

All the best........ Rojoe :)
 
Have you ever served in the military service of this nation?

If I had time and energy I would explain a few things that I feel you took and twisted around a little back on the 20th.

Rojoe - Yes I volunteered for the Army in 1971, It seemed like I was one of the very very few that volunteered back then though :), it was mostly a draft army then. At the time I believed that communism was threatening America and that if we didn't stop it in Vietnam the dominos would fall. It was years later before I came to the conclusion that Vietnam was a stupid war that killed some 58,000 soldiers for no good reason.

No - I don't generally argue with stumps, but I should explain that I see debate as a learning tool. I sometimes get ideas into my head that are incorrect or illogical, and then get into a debate about it and find out that I need to change my thinking. I sometimes also find out from the debate that I may be correct. It is an excellent opportunity to hold up a mirror of dispassion to my thoughts and get another reading entirely on them.

If I twisted around things you said, I apologize, it wouldn't have been intentional. I may have misinterpreted or misunderstood something you said, but I try to be an honest debater.
 
Let's put this in perspective...
In January 1945, while we had boys in Bastone, 30,000 allied soldiers died from NON-COMBAT WOUNDS such as Trenchfoot and frostbite. 30,000! I realize that this is a different era. We have lost less than 2,000 in the 2 + years we have been in Iraq and Afganistan. Are we really willing to fight the forces of evil and corruption? Our parents and grandparents were willing to sacrifice everything. Are we?
Methuselah
 
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