Do you Carry Loaded?

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Might be worth mentioning that carrying mag loaded, chamber empty became known as "Israeli style" because that was (and perhaps still is?) the manner in which the Israeli Army would carry their pistols, at least day-to-day. Not sure about what they did/do while engaged in a combat zone.

In case you were wondering, those Israeli military security guards around Tel Aviv and the airport toting full-auto subs definitely have one in the pipe.

In Japan, nearly all police or security that I am aware of are required to carry chamber empty, and they train to always rack the slide as part of their draw.
 
From re-reading this thread, I get the feeling that there are those who sneer at them that carry an automatic with an empty chamber, which does not make it an unloaded gun--just empty chambered. Now that is arrogance.

I frequently read over Fairbairn's book on "Shooting to Live" (don't you love the title?). It is true that the Colt .45 automatics issued to the Shanghai police had the safeties pinned in the off position and the carry method was chamber empty. He claimed it could be demonstrated that a draw and rack-the-slide operation could be done very quickly but he did not go into the details. That's a little hard to get across in writing but I have no doubt that relative speed is quite possible.

Now, the thing on which it turns is how much speed is necessary. If the bad guy literally jumps you, I'd say it would make no difference. You'd be down for the count right away. Likewise, if he has a gun pointed at you, there's no way you can beat him. If you think you can, go ahead and try. I don't care. That's why I do not complain about anyone carrying their equalizer any old way they want, no matter how much you don't like my methods. I even think hammer down on a loaded chamber with a Colt Government Model (and only that model) is a fairly good carry method, only you may not trust the gun that much. No, it won't work on too many other guns but it isn't at all difficult to thumb cock the pistol. I can't do it reliably with a Commander-style hammer.

I think Fairbairn's issue was safety more so than actually working the thumb safety, even with the ones on the early .45 autos. In that department, as I understand it, pistols were turned in at the end of the shift and handed over to the next shift. So there was a lot of handling of guns at the station house.

Other early writers rather dismissed the .45 auto as being either slow or unsafe because of these issues, although I am absolutely certain that cocked and locked was already an accepted carry method quite early on, judging from photographs of some uniformed law enforcement officers. No retaining straps of any kind, either. Anyway, those other writers tended to favor revolvers and it wasn't until relatively recently that other autos became more acceptable, generally starting with the S&W Model 39. And that's another gun that I'd carry chamber empty rather than attempt to quickly work the safety. I carry cocked and locked first (but don't quote me).
 
From re-reading this thread, I get the feeling that there are those who sneer at them that carry an automatic with an empty chamber, which does not make it an unloaded gun--just empty chambered. Now that is arrogance.

I frequently read over Fairbairn's book on "Shooting to Live" (don't you love the title?). It is true that the Colt .45 automatics issued to the Shanghai police had the safeties pinned in the off position and the carry method was chamber empty. He claimed it could be demonstrated that a draw and rack-the-slide operation could be done very quickly but he did not go into the details. That's a little hard to get across in writing but I have no doubt that relative speed is quite possible.

Now, the thing on which it turns is how much speed is necessary. If the bad guy literally jumps you, I'd say it would make no difference. You'd be down for the count right away. Likewise, if he has a gun pointed at you, there's no way you can beat him. If you think you can, go ahead and try. I don't care. That's why I do not complain about anyone carrying their equalizer any old way they want, no matter how much you don't like my methods. I even think hammer down on a loaded chamber with a Colt Government Model (and only that model) is a fairly good carry method, only you may not trust the gun that much. No, it won't work on too many other guns but it isn't at all difficult to thumb cock the pistol. I can't do it reliably with a Commander-style hammer.

I think Fairbairn's issue was safety more so than actually working the thumb safety, even with the ones on the early .45 autos. In that department, as I understand it, pistols were turned in at the end of the shift and handed over to the next shift. So there was a lot of handling of guns at the station house.

Other early writers rather dismissed the .45 auto as being either slow or unsafe because of these issues, although I am absolutely certain that cocked and locked was already an accepted carry method quite early on, judging from photographs of some uniformed law enforcement officers. No retaining straps of any kind, either. Anyway, those other writers tended to favor revolvers and it wasn't until relatively recently that other autos became more acceptable, generally starting with the S&W Model 39. And that's another gun that I'd carry chamber empty rather than attempt to quickly work the safety. I carry cocked and locked first (but don't quote me).
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You're right!

I am arrogant, but only because I'm right. Having stopped a blade from going in my gut by deflecting it with one hand, while drawing a loaded weapon with the other hand is the only thing that kept me out of the hospital one night. I can honestly tell you that I had no time to rack the slide to chamber a round in that instance.

In another instance I did have time to rack a round in to the chamber, and did so, but it was the 870 Pump Action Shotgun, not the peashooter on my hip. Guns that have the chamber empty are unloaded for defensive carry purposes. There may be a good reason to have one with the chamber empty, but not if it's a daily carry weapon, IMO. Your example of a bedside gun and kids in the house is a good example of this.

Look, I don't much care what anyone does, so long as it doesn't effect me or mine. Carry an unloaded water pistol for all I care and attempt to "reason" with a felon when you should be shooting him or her. I can honestly tell you that I have been told by real life criminals that the only reason, after the fact of course, that they didn't do something was because they knew beyond a doubt that I would shoot them, and probably kill them.

Attitude? No. Arrogance? yes. :)

Biker
 
There may be a good reason to have one with the chamber empty, but not if it's a daily carry weapon, IMO. Your example of a bedside gun and kids in the house is a good example of this.
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I have to agree with this. If you are going to carry a gun, you have to be able to operate it with one hand. Personally, I don't even like the idea of having to flip a safety switch. If you carry a 1911 with hammer down, that's about the same thing as carrying with chamber empty in my opinion. This why I'm a big fan of a double action pull on at least the first shot. There's no (unless you're screwing around) chance of AD. At the distance I'd be shooting at, whatever variation between the first shot being DA and followups being SA is meaningless. Anyone who is nervous carrying with a round in the chamber really needs to consider this format. Guns in this format have decocking levers - they were designed to get rid of any apprehension about carrying a round in the chamber.
 
Well - I'm an avid Jack Bauer fan (series, 24) - which makes me a self-declared expert with firearms. (smug grin)

Bauer usually racks the slide to chamber a round when he's handed a firearm.
(I think hollywood just likes the sound - they do the same thing with pump action shotguns)

I don't carry - but imagine that the process of working the action makes a distinct "oh crap" sound that is likely to get the attention of most would-be targets (and persuade them to carry out their activities elsewhere).

Interesting article on this topic - see here:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/183

Joe Allen finds that C3 (Israeli) method of carry adds about 0.3 seconds to the process of drawing and firing.
 
Jack Bauer does a lot of cocking and un-cocking of his Sig also.

A very foolish place to learn firearms handling.
 
I must be living under a rock or in the backwoods (more likely just the backroom--see what the boys in the backroom will have and tell them I'm having the same) but who's Jack Bauer and Joe Allen?

I've mentioned before what I think of Colt Commanders (the lightweight model) and Government Models and yet I don't own any of either model. My preferred handgun, that is, of the ones I actually own, has no safety. The other one, which is sometimes my preferred handgun, has a safety but it can be carried safely without it "on," or so I am led to believe. They're both double action autos.
 
This is getting a touch chest pounding.

Here's a hint - continue to avoid the language filter deliberately and your time here ends.

If you think using such language makes you look like a tough guy or you want to insult someone - we don't want you.

Understand.
 
I wouldve asked the kid if he drives his car with gas in the tank or does he just keep it in a gascan in the trunk......hmmm no gas in fuel tank mean no drivey drivey
 
Carrying a weapon = one in the chamber

If I am carrying a weapon, there is one in the chamber. +1 to the posts if there is kids in the house and bedside to keep the chamber empty, I can see that:)

I ran this past a police officer friend of mine, they are instructed for 12 guage not to keep a round in the chamber, they are trained for when they go into a situation that would require them to take their shotgun out of their car to rack a round in the chamber, this is to let the Bad Guy know what the officer is now carrying, and the officers intentions. This same office indicated it was a very eerie feeling when you hear the same sound back. :eek:

At that point he back up, and called for backup. :cool:
 
I thought that shotguns were carried unchambered due to them not being drop safe as compared to most modern handguns.

A department really officially told its officers to rely on sound effects? Sounds stupid to me.
 
..let the Bad Guy know what the officer is now carrying, and the officers intentions.
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I think that one can go directly to the circular filing cabinet.

Yes, the only reason I've ever heard to carry a shotgun with empty chamber was to make it drop-safe.

If somebody is handed or picks up a pistol (or any firearm) for presumed near-term use, they are going to want to check if it is loaded. This is typically called a "press check" where the slide is slid a quarter inch, just enough to see the brass, then put back into battery. Doesn't look as impressive on TV as does a full slingshot.
 
I'm called back by the topic question to the truth serum scene in

"True Lies" where housewife asks spy(Arnold) "Have you ever killed anybody ?"

and he says, "Yeah, but they were ALL re-eally BAD ..." :D

Sometimes the devil takes over in me and I can't help myself, I just have to

answer with something like :

"Only when YOU'RE around!" or

"Hey what'cha talkin' about? I haven't had an accidental discharge in
weeks!" or

"Yeah, but I only shoot really bad people, as long as I'm sober enough to tell the difference!"

Exactly what does this goober think he's going to accomplish being so
awkwardly obnoxious towards you, anyway? He'd probably be thankful of your
presence, given the right circumstances.

I'm sure we all take precautions against "pulling a Barney". I personally don't
chamber a round till the threat level escalates. But I don't wait till the last second, either. I'm not running around inside my house with a bullet in the bore, however. I'm just not that afraid of life.
 
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As I mentioned earlier, my department carried the 1911 C&L because at the time, an affordable, reliable DA auto wasn't available in .45 caliber. As far as the OP I would say that the guy was either rude, ignorant or both and I wouldn't have answered him anyway. ;)
 
Looking at things from a practical stand point.

The guy asking a random person it they carry loaded is just looking to pick a fight.

As for what condition to carry a auto:

A auto without one in the chamber is like having a DA revolver and leaving the cylinder open or just carrying a single action revolver with the hammer down. ( not that we would want to carry a SA with the hammer cocked due to lack of a safety )

A DA auto with one in the chamber, hammer down and safety OFF is just like a DA revolver with a heavy enough trigger to prevent AD from a snag.

A auto with one in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety ON is OK for more experienced users. ( and one of the reasons new gun owners are usually instructed to get a DA revolver )

A auto with one in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety OFF is just asking for trouble due to the ever so light SA trigger.
 
No I carry mine empty, that way noone gets hurt by them nasty bullet thingys........

Why would anyone carry an empty gun or even ask if he should?


Reading this forum kinda makes me fearfull, makes me feel like someone is gonna accidently shoot themselves or worse me.......
 
Maybe someone should ask why everyone knows so and so is carrying a gun in the first place, assuming it wasn't being carried openly. With certain carry methods, that is to say, certain concealment methods, a two-handed draw is almost required. I know that because I've been attempting that while wearing either a sweater or long sweatshirt. It is next to impossible to do a nice, smooth draw using just one hand, no matter what kind of holster is being used. It just takes two hands to get the gun into action. Under those circumstances, racking the slide (here we've only been talking automatics, I assume) isn't much of an issue because your other hand is already right there. If you needed your hand for something else, too, well, that's what elbows are for. I know some people that are very good with their elbows.

All that may be well and good but that isn't to say I'm recommending a chamber empty carry, even if you thought I was. I'm merely defending those who are being attached for thinking that is good for them. I still think there can be good reasons for a chamber empty carry, as well as hammer down on a single action auto, if the design permits it and the user has the manual dexterity to cock the hammer. It takes about the same effort as releasing the thumb snap on a holster and you even use the same thumb.

My personal preference, which I suggest to no one, is for a double action only automatic, which is something of a rare thing. I don't include the Glock design under that description, however, although some might. I gather that most don't like DAO automatics and maybe not revolvers used that way. They don't all have good triggers and none have great triggers either, but all that I've tried, including DA/SA models at least have something better than on the older Colt OP and PPS revolvers. I have fired a Kahr automatic in 9mm and they're all right but I'm not sure how you would describe their triggers. It's pretty much what I have in mind but I don't have one.

I even like .45 automatics, too.
 
I ran this past a police officer friend of mine, they are instructed for 12 guage not to keep a round in the chamber, they are trained for when they go into a situation that would require them to take their shotgun out of their car to rack a round in the chamber, this is to let the Bad Guy know what the officer is now carrying, and the officers intentions. This same office indicated it was a very eerie feeling when you hear the same sound back.
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Wow..... I can't imagine anyone with any credibility teaching that as the reasoning behind training doctrine.:eek:

We teach cruiser carry (safey off, unchambered) for a more practical reason and that is you may have to initially shuck out a round for a slug and dumping one round instead of two is more efficient.
 
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