Like I said, any dog will do. I guess I should have typed "any doggie that will bark will do." Even if the dog won't bark (funny how none of those dogs live in my neighborhood--maybe I should get my neighbors Huskies from Cibr this Christmas), he may have some deterrent effect.
Do Collies Make Good Protection Dogs??
- Thread starter Anthony
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Any dog will do. Yes. Just as any car will do in the Indy 500. Just as any gun will do in a war. etc.
Sorry for the sarcasm. But remember that the original post was about protection dog training. To suggest that any dog can be PROTECTION TRAINED is regretably wrong. If this was the case and all we had to do was what J.B.Hickok suggested, then we as professional dog trainers would be put of a job. Not to mention that the military and the police have been going about things wrong for years.
Now yes there is a difference between a personal protection dog and a police K9. But there also a lot of similarities. And for a SERIOUS protection dog, you would need most of the same qualities as a police k9 does. I cannot go into all about prey drives, defensive drives and explaining avoidance, etc. or this post would be forever long. Also it would do no good if the one reading it is not knowlegable in this type of training. But all I can say now is that there are many misconceptions, fallacies and urban legends about this type of dog training. My best advice is to educate yourself and do lots of research about the subject before making decisions or making false, misleading replies promoting more false information about subject. We as dog trainers have to deal a lot with bad images from misinformed people about this type of training. It's bad enough when the media misleads the public any time a dog bites someone. Mistaking a properly trained and properly handled dog as being the same as someones dog tied up in the backyard that bites a child.
Sorry I'm not trying to come down on anyone. But remember the original post was about whether a collie could be PROTECTION TRAINED. And I still say no. But there is always that exceptional one. Better to get a dog bred for this type of work.
Sorry for the sarcasm. But remember that the original post was about protection dog training. To suggest that any dog can be PROTECTION TRAINED is regretably wrong. If this was the case and all we had to do was what J.B.Hickok suggested, then we as professional dog trainers would be put of a job. Not to mention that the military and the police have been going about things wrong for years.
Now yes there is a difference between a personal protection dog and a police K9. But there also a lot of similarities. And for a SERIOUS protection dog, you would need most of the same qualities as a police k9 does. I cannot go into all about prey drives, defensive drives and explaining avoidance, etc. or this post would be forever long. Also it would do no good if the one reading it is not knowlegable in this type of training. But all I can say now is that there are many misconceptions, fallacies and urban legends about this type of dog training. My best advice is to educate yourself and do lots of research about the subject before making decisions or making false, misleading replies promoting more false information about subject. We as dog trainers have to deal a lot with bad images from misinformed people about this type of training. It's bad enough when the media misleads the public any time a dog bites someone. Mistaking a properly trained and properly handled dog as being the same as someones dog tied up in the backyard that bites a child.
Sorry I'm not trying to come down on anyone. But remember the original post was about whether a collie could be PROTECTION TRAINED. And I still say no. But there is always that exceptional one. Better to get a dog bred for this type of work.
J.B. Hickok
Moderator
I suspect that you are more correct than you realize in that if more people were better informed about dogs many professional dog trainers would in deed be out of work.
You will notice that I also said after the initial training/breaking in period the owner should then decide if additional/formal training is needed, desired or justified given the animal and its instinctive ability.
Dog trainers are an invaluable asset to the law enforcement community. They are equally over rated in the so called civilian community.
You will notice that I also said after the initial training/breaking in period the owner should then decide if additional/formal training is needed, desired or justified given the animal and its instinctive ability.
Dog trainers are an invaluable asset to the law enforcement community. They are equally over rated in the so called civilian community.
Here's an interesting point no one has brought up.
After reading a few of your replies I went back through my LFI-I notes from taking my shooting class with Massad Ayoob and Lethal Force Institute.
He told us about his "protection trained" dog. A brindle Great Dane of all things. He was known as Jeramiah Puppybeast. Not only was he the family pet, but fully "protection trained" with his commands in Arabic.
Ayoob went on to chronicle several incidents in which the dog performed his "protection function" beautifully. Although I am aware of the fact that the Great Dane was originally bred as a war dog of some sort, it has undoubtably not been bred for such work in some time. Further, I have no reason to doubt Ayoob's accounts.
When was the last time you saw a Great Dane at the end of a soldier or police officer's leash?
Why should I believe that a Collie cannot be "protection trained" when a Great Dane can be?
Thoughts? Opinions?
- Anthony
After reading a few of your replies I went back through my LFI-I notes from taking my shooting class with Massad Ayoob and Lethal Force Institute.
He told us about his "protection trained" dog. A brindle Great Dane of all things. He was known as Jeramiah Puppybeast. Not only was he the family pet, but fully "protection trained" with his commands in Arabic.
Ayoob went on to chronicle several incidents in which the dog performed his "protection function" beautifully. Although I am aware of the fact that the Great Dane was originally bred as a war dog of some sort, it has undoubtably not been bred for such work in some time. Further, I have no reason to doubt Ayoob's accounts.
When was the last time you saw a Great Dane at the end of a soldier or police officer's leash?
Why should I believe that a Collie cannot be "protection trained" when a Great Dane can be?
Thoughts? Opinions?
- Anthony
J.B.Hickok. You are right in a way. Trainers are not over rated in civilian community. But rather people misunderstand the protection trained dog. Quite often people get it in their head that they need a protection trained dog and nothing can be said to change their minds. I stated in my first post that perhaps the person should consider a dog just as a deterant. I said that. Look at my first post and you will see. A lot of people get their protection trained dogs and after a while, they change their minds and sell their dogs, or even return them, rather than deal with the responsibility that comes with the dog and it's upkeep. We interview prospective clients and customers and try to evaluate whether they need a protection dog or deterant dog. And what the extent of training needed. Because any bad experience or unhappy client will reflect badly on our business. But if you will read the original post and stick to the text of the original post you will see that I am posting to what was asked. About protection trained dogs. And as to whether a collie would do the work.
Which leads me to Anthony. I deeply respect Mr. Ayoob. And his vast knowlege. But as to how knowlegable he is in protection dog training, I do not know. You said that he has a protection trained Great Dane? Good Also how extensively was his dog trained? As I also stated in earlier posts, There are always exceptions. In any breed. But if you want a dog for protection training, stick to a breed that is bred and proven again and again in this area. Analogy( I asked a motorcycle mechanic once if there was any thing he could do to improve my honda cb750's performance? I stated that the gsxr750 suzuki was incredibly fast. Why was the honda slow? He said " If you want a bike that performs like a gsxr750, buy a gsxr750.) So if you want a dog to do protection work, buy a dog bred for this work.
Which leads me to Anthony. I deeply respect Mr. Ayoob. And his vast knowlege. But as to how knowlegable he is in protection dog training, I do not know. You said that he has a protection trained Great Dane? Good Also how extensively was his dog trained? As I also stated in earlier posts, There are always exceptions. In any breed. But if you want a dog for protection training, stick to a breed that is bred and proven again and again in this area. Analogy( I asked a motorcycle mechanic once if there was any thing he could do to improve my honda cb750's performance? I stated that the gsxr750 suzuki was incredibly fast. Why was the honda slow? He said " If you want a bike that performs like a gsxr750, buy a gsxr750.) So if you want a dog to do protection work, buy a dog bred for this work.
J.B. Hickok
Moderator
Boris, I completely agree with that statement. That is, in part, the reasons I contended, and still do, that even the lowly collie, not normally thought of as an agressive dog, can be suitable as a protection dog. Most people look at the prospect of a dog as a protector more casually than a trainer or someone with years of protection and/or partol dog experience. To them, the casual owner, the dog is a family pet first and a protector second. This is even more often the case when there are children in the home. I have to say that my opinion of anyone that would return a dog after inviting it and keeping it in their home once it did not measure up is not a favorable one. (It is shame that dogs can not trade in unsuitable owners.)
Anothony, I to once knew a Great Dane who, with no formal training, was a ferocious guardian of his family. I have known too a male toy Poodle that herded cattle and did quite well at it. In the latter example this is akin to employing a wrench to drive nails but it worked. However, in the case of the Collie I do think it too much of a leap from what is traditionally thought of as the breeds character to function well as a family protection dog.
That is the reason I suggested getting one and only after doing what I offered with the dog you evaluate the individual dog to see if it has the potential to justify spending money with a professional trainer. If it does, and chances are it will, then you are well on your way to having an excellent family pet/protection dog. If not it can serve as a back up and companion to the next one.
I have owned many dogs, and of different breeds.
I got Snowdog (my large-bone German Shepherd) as an eight-week-old pup four years ago... I was instantly in love with the breed. They are incredibly responsive and intelligent.
Once I got my German Shepherd, I never looked back. Any other dogs I may own in the future will certainly be German Shepherds as well, not a doubt in my mind.
I got Snowdog (my large-bone German Shepherd) as an eight-week-old pup four years ago... I was instantly in love with the breed. They are incredibly responsive and intelligent.
Once I got my German Shepherd, I never looked back. Any other dogs I may own in the future will certainly be German Shepherds as well, not a doubt in my mind.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I've had a number of dogs during my years, and have known a lot of friends' dogs. Seems to me, overall, that for a good "take care of you" dog, a good Shepherd pup, raised in one's family, just naturally is protective of "his" people.
I'm talking here of a dog with little or no training, just following his nature. I don't at all mean to knock any other breed, and certainly understand the value of competent, professional training.
Most folks just want to buy a pup, take it home, and let it grow up in the expectation that all manner of good attributes will just naturally occur. That's just the way people ARE. By and large, a Shepherd commonly seems to come pretty close to filling the bill...
$0.02, Art
I'm talking here of a dog with little or no training, just following his nature. I don't at all mean to knock any other breed, and certainly understand the value of competent, professional training.
Most folks just want to buy a pup, take it home, and let it grow up in the expectation that all manner of good attributes will just naturally occur. That's just the way people ARE. By and large, a Shepherd commonly seems to come pretty close to filling the bill...
$0.02, Art
a collie would be a fine choice
i think that almost any working dog can fit the bill as a home protector. they are probably the best alarm system ever developed by man. they are always "on" and ask very little in return for their services. food and fresh water (and of course routine vet visits) will make them dependable and loyal.
i personally have two mixed breeds. both of them are half border collies. they are well adjusted to both other dogs and people and would not attack anything unprovoked. but they would not hesitate to jump into a hostile situation. there main job is to let us know when someone is around. we live in the country and whenever someone comes near we usually know about before our visitors do.
just don't expect the impossible from a collie. they are not bred to be attack dogs. but for what you require, they will suffice. just remember, they will only be as good as you train them to be. instinct can only take a dog so far, the rest is left up to the owner.
stinger
i think that almost any working dog can fit the bill as a home protector. they are probably the best alarm system ever developed by man. they are always "on" and ask very little in return for their services. food and fresh water (and of course routine vet visits) will make them dependable and loyal.
i personally have two mixed breeds. both of them are half border collies. they are well adjusted to both other dogs and people and would not attack anything unprovoked. but they would not hesitate to jump into a hostile situation. there main job is to let us know when someone is around. we live in the country and whenever someone comes near we usually know about before our visitors do.
just don't expect the impossible from a collie. they are not bred to be attack dogs. but for what you require, they will suffice. just remember, they will only be as good as you train them to be. instinct can only take a dog so far, the rest is left up to the owner.
stinger
".....and ask very little in return for their services. food and fresh water (and of course routine vet visits) will make them dependable and loyal."
Just a minor point not directed at anyone.
They ask for more than that, they ask for our love and affection. They ask to be made a part of the family or pack. I am convinced that this is one of the primary drives of a dog which ranks right up with food and water. We have all heard the stories about a dog walking half way across the country to be reunited with it's owners. Something that I find heart wrenching is when I see people mistreat dogs and the dog still expresses it's love to some POS that doesn't deserve it. The phrase, Man's Best Friend is one of the truest statements ever made.
Rant mode on; If you don't want a dog in your house, if you don't have the time to give a dog the attention that it deserves, don't get one at all. Do not sentence a dog to a life of being chained up in the yard. It doesn't deserve it.
Just a minor point not directed at anyone.
They ask for more than that, they ask for our love and affection. They ask to be made a part of the family or pack. I am convinced that this is one of the primary drives of a dog which ranks right up with food and water. We have all heard the stories about a dog walking half way across the country to be reunited with it's owners. Something that I find heart wrenching is when I see people mistreat dogs and the dog still expresses it's love to some POS that doesn't deserve it. The phrase, Man's Best Friend is one of the truest statements ever made.
Rant mode on; If you don't want a dog in your house, if you don't have the time to give a dog the attention that it deserves, don't get one at all. Do not sentence a dog to a life of being chained up in the yard. It doesn't deserve it.
I'd also like to add that there is a distinct difference between an "intelligent" dog and an "obedient" dog.
Again using the Siberian Husky example, it is highly intelligent and possess extremely high problem solving skills (Huskies have been known to figure out operating mechanisms of their kennels gates and escape), but it is NOT obedient or easily trainable.
To be fair, almost any dog can be trained using various (more or less Pavlovian) methods, but some dogs are simply more eager to please their owners than others.
Huskies, for example, really don't care how their owners feel. They are independent and do what pleases them. German Shepherds in comparison are enormously eager to please their masters.
Some dogs are less intelligent, but also eager to please and easy to train. Of course, the best of both worlds is an intelligent dog that is eager to please.
I've been using the clicker training method and it has excellent results!
Skorzeny
Again using the Siberian Husky example, it is highly intelligent and possess extremely high problem solving skills (Huskies have been known to figure out operating mechanisms of their kennels gates and escape), but it is NOT obedient or easily trainable.
To be fair, almost any dog can be trained using various (more or less Pavlovian) methods, but some dogs are simply more eager to please their owners than others.
Huskies, for example, really don't care how their owners feel. They are independent and do what pleases them. German Shepherds in comparison are enormously eager to please their masters.
Some dogs are less intelligent, but also eager to please and easy to train. Of course, the best of both worlds is an intelligent dog that is eager to please.
I've been using the clicker training method and it has excellent results!
Skorzeny
Akitas
I've had a 120 lb brindle Akita sleeping next to my bed every night for the last 13 years. Incredible dog- very quiet, gentle with my kids, does what he's told.
I would second what's been said about deterrent dogs. I worked to make sure that Bushido was trained not to be aggressive at all when he was a puppy. No one in their right mind would threaten an Akita's people in his presence, and if someone did push it he doesn't need to be trained to react. I don't need the headache of a dog that acts aggressive and might need ongoing training on when and when not to bite people.
I would second the comment that if you want a dog for a purpose, get one that's bred for it.
I've had a 120 lb brindle Akita sleeping next to my bed every night for the last 13 years. Incredible dog- very quiet, gentle with my kids, does what he's told.
I would second what's been said about deterrent dogs. I worked to make sure that Bushido was trained not to be aggressive at all when he was a puppy. No one in their right mind would threaten an Akita's people in his presence, and if someone did push it he doesn't need to be trained to react. I don't need the headache of a dog that acts aggressive and might need ongoing training on when and when not to bite people.
I would second the comment that if you want a dog for a purpose, get one that's bred for it.
I've owned a few dogs over the years (mostly mutts). About 15 years ago I purchased a collie thinking it would be the perfect family dog (okay, I grew up watching Lassie). Rusty turned out to be THE most territorial dog I've ever owned. He would not allow the mailman into the yard. He was aggressive toward any strangers, but it was absolute war with the mailman. He would stand his ground and there was no question he was for real. Normally he was in the fenced in back yard, but occasionally he would get out, especially if he was playing with the kids. He was great with the kids, especially after he grew to adulthood.
Now I don't know if collies would be good as a "protection" dog, but I think that "Lassie" image probably keeps them from being considered.
My two year old son was a little rough with Rusty as a puppy, but the dog got revenge by the time he was six months old. He would literally herd Christopher across the living room. He would use his body to "bump" Christopher wherever he wanted him to go.
Rusty's long gone now. His replacement (caliber 45) provides no warning if someone's at the door, and no heat on your feet on a cold night.
Now I don't know if collies would be good as a "protection" dog, but I think that "Lassie" image probably keeps them from being considered.
My two year old son was a little rough with Rusty as a puppy, but the dog got revenge by the time he was six months old. He would literally herd Christopher across the living room. He would use his body to "bump" Christopher wherever he wanted him to go.
Rusty's long gone now. His replacement (caliber 45) provides no warning if someone's at the door, and no heat on your feet on a cold night.
striderteen
New member
Hmm...my Golden Retriever is FAR too friendly to be much use, even as a deterrent. Besides, he's asleep most of the time. Of course, I don't really care...I've had him since I was eight (I'm eighteen now) and he's my buddy.
Any dog is FAR better than no dog. The best all around dog in the world BAR NONE is a well bred German Shepard.
I have not personally owned one, but my beast friend had a German Shepard (from Germany) and she was the best
dog I have ever known. She had five litters of puppies and STILL lived to be 16 years old before she passed. NO hip problems and no other health problems. 110 lbs. Huge dog. No one would mess with her. But she was obediant and
well behaved. She saved my friends life a couple of times. The German shepard breed is the most inteligent and
trainable dog. It is not a fluke that they are the #1 police, bomb sniffing and seeing eye dog breed. They are
wonderfull, beautiful, inteligent and supremely loyal animals. I have a black Lab right now. He is a GREAT dog. But
labs are not agressive enough to be guard dogs. Unlike many other defensive breeds such as pit-bulls, dobermans, rotweilers etc, Shepards do not have unpredictably violent tendencies. They can be trusted around children, NO PROBLEM.
I have not personally owned one, but my beast friend had a German Shepard (from Germany) and she was the best
dog I have ever known. She had five litters of puppies and STILL lived to be 16 years old before she passed. NO hip problems and no other health problems. 110 lbs. Huge dog. No one would mess with her. But she was obediant and
well behaved. She saved my friends life a couple of times. The German shepard breed is the most inteligent and
trainable dog. It is not a fluke that they are the #1 police, bomb sniffing and seeing eye dog breed. They are
wonderfull, beautiful, inteligent and supremely loyal animals. I have a black Lab right now. He is a GREAT dog. But
labs are not agressive enough to be guard dogs. Unlike many other defensive breeds such as pit-bulls, dobermans, rotweilers etc, Shepards do not have unpredictably violent tendencies. They can be trusted around children, NO PROBLEM.
DEFINE YOUR TERMS, GENTLEMEN!
It looks like Boris is using a very specific definition, and others are using terms more loosely. Boris, would you please give us a definition of "protection dog" and "deterrant dog"? You're the expert here. And I thank you for your input.
If a deterrant dog is one that can alert you, and perhaps scare away the average burglar, and MAYBE launch a successful attack against a more determined intruder, then I nominate the mastiff breed. Very gentle with kids, and has a bark that seems to come from the very bowels of the earth. And the size alone is a great deterrant.
For a trip wire, any of the little yappers will do, if you can stand the wretched varmints. I prefer a dog that keeps it's mouth shut until there's a real reason to bark. I don't care for the crying wolf business, and I don't need the constant noise.
BTW, I second the less than favorable remarks on the cocker spaniel. It's also one of the LEAST trustworthy around children.
It looks like Boris is using a very specific definition, and others are using terms more loosely. Boris, would you please give us a definition of "protection dog" and "deterrant dog"? You're the expert here. And I thank you for your input.
If a deterrant dog is one that can alert you, and perhaps scare away the average burglar, and MAYBE launch a successful attack against a more determined intruder, then I nominate the mastiff breed. Very gentle with kids, and has a bark that seems to come from the very bowels of the earth. And the size alone is a great deterrant.
For a trip wire, any of the little yappers will do, if you can stand the wretched varmints. I prefer a dog that keeps it's mouth shut until there's a real reason to bark. I don't care for the crying wolf business, and I don't need the constant noise.
BTW, I second the less than favorable remarks on the cocker spaniel. It's also one of the LEAST trustworthy around children.
MP Freeman
New member
I have two miniture weiner dogs. One male and one female. Both fixed, so no puppies. But they are real sissies when it comes to being aggressive with people. They are the most gentle and loving dogs, but they will bark with a 'big-dog' bark when people or noises arrive. And then advance on the new arrival and lick it or roll over.
However, the male is incredibly aggressive towards varmits and birds. I've seen him catch one rabbit and almost one squirrel. But other dogs he considers friends. But he will tear up varmits. The female however will love everything.
MP
However, the male is incredibly aggressive towards varmits and birds. I've seen him catch one rabbit and almost one squirrel. But other dogs he considers friends. But he will tear up varmits. The female however will love everything.
MP
Thank you Captain. I appreciate your support. A protection dog is a dog trained in bitework for personal or property protection. He does not NATURALLY PROTECT. We train them to BITE by stimulating natural drives. These drives are PREY and DEFENSIVE. In prey drive the dog naturally chase the prey and bite. In prey drive the dog does not feel threatened by the prey. So it will whole heartedly without concern for it's safety, chase the prey and bite it. In defense drive, the dog feels a threat from the subject. Whether the dog will bite depends on the confidence of the dog. In a defensive situation a dog's natural reaction is either fight or flight. Most dog's reactions is to get away from the threat. Also a dog who barks from the end of a chain, leash or from behind a fence or door is not necessarily a confident dog. As long as the dog is restrained by the fence or leash, he may be more confident. Like a person who when someone is holding them back, talks the most sh*t. But when no one is holding them, they mind their tongue. And are more reluctant to engage the other person. We ultimately want a balanced dog, in both prey and defense drives. A dog should be confident enough to not perceive the subject as a threat. But if the subject threatens him, he should be confident enough in defense to continue and thrive on the fight. Now all of this does not mean that the dog is unsociable. In fact the dog's temperment should allow the dog to switch from friendly to bitework without making the dog untrusting. Also the dog does not actually protect. He follows commands. In his head he does not understand protect the human. He understands commands, situational training and personal threat. Dogs are not like Rin Tin Tin. They do not reason. They have the mentality of a 2 or 3 year old child.
A DETERANT DOG. Is just simply a dog that deters a threat. Either visably or audiably. The sight of a large dog ( Like the mastiff) or the sound of the thunderous bark of the large breeds is enough to make most people keep walking. ( Or running) A deterant dog can be trained through limited defensive work to bark when it perseives a threat. Not necessarilly engage the threat. German Shepherd dogs are also good deterants because when someone see a German Shepherd dog they think police dog. Even if they do not believe that the person is a policeman, they subconsciously relate the dog to authority.
I know this is a long post but it is a subject that I cannot explain shortly. I there is still so much I did not mention.
A DETERANT DOG. Is just simply a dog that deters a threat. Either visably or audiably. The sight of a large dog ( Like the mastiff) or the sound of the thunderous bark of the large breeds is enough to make most people keep walking. ( Or running) A deterant dog can be trained through limited defensive work to bark when it perseives a threat. Not necessarilly engage the threat. German Shepherd dogs are also good deterants because when someone see a German Shepherd dog they think police dog. Even if they do not believe that the person is a policeman, they subconsciously relate the dog to authority.
I know this is a long post but it is a subject that I cannot explain shortly. I there is still so much I did not mention.
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