Defense ammo for short-barreled 45

[Aguila Blanca]

Essentially they use a bullet that is identical, or so much so, that the difference is of no reliable use. They charge extra for the packaging and a claim is all.

But they don't use a bullet that is identical. They use a bullet that is specifically designed to expand reliably at lower velocity.

Aguila asks:

How many people have you shot with the HST, and how effectively did it expand in each encounter?

That's not a useful question.

Great job pulling one sentence out of context. What I asked was "What does 'Work great for me' mean?" Since we are talking about self-defense ammunition, if you haven't shot anyone with it, I respectfully submit that you don't know how well or poorly it performs. So the real question in my post was the question I led off with:

What does "Work great for me" mean?

 

[agtman]

I carry a 3" 1911 Colt new agent, most 1911's are designed to fire the 230 gr. hard ball for reliable feeding . That's what I use, 230 grain FMJ

Colt NA here also. My EDC load-out starts with one +P 230gn JHP in the chamber, followed by seven 230gn FMJ cartridges in the magazine.

I've tested this combo repeatedly and haven't had any failure to feed or cycle. And at the real-world 'combat distances' in which you'd likely engage an attacker with a 3" 1911, keeping all those rounds COM isn't difficult if you put in the time to practice drawing and firing from concealment at close range.

I use a reduced silhouette and have come to appreciate the NA's trench-sight system. (The NA is the same as Colt's Defender but with a 'gutter'-type sight instead of the Novaks).

 

[defjon]

At the risk of sounding like I'm oversimplifying things, I would load up with whatever 45 acp round you can shoot most accurately and quickly.

It's a pretty good round in most formats against 2 legged threats.

I might advise a properly powered 10mm if big 4 legged threats are common.

 

[tipoc]

But they don't use a bullet that is identical. They use a bullet that is specifically designed to expand reliably at lower velocity.

That is a claim that they make. It's also not a claim that is consistent or reliable. I have that opinion and I explained why in a previous post. If you believe that the bullet is specifically built to expand at lower velocities to be the case then get that ammo.

What does "Work great for me" mean?

Then hopefully the fella that said that will come back and reply.

I already explained how I choose defensive ammo and what I suggest for other folks when I replied to your questions about that. If you disagree...OK.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Here is a vid from Paul Harrell that discusses "Short Barrel Ammo" vs the more standard. Unfortunately it is not for 45 acp but for 380. So i suggest that folks look for vids in 45 acp and also look for how any ammo performs in the FBI protocol tests (we can debate how effective these tests are but there are no others as consistent).

The other point here is that this vid only covers Remington ammo. Others may vary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXXK3chtBc

Another from Ammo Quest on 9mm ammo. (They do not use calibrated ballistic gel but non calibrated clear gel.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjRcV0eTohs

One for 45acp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoH4CMg1Shg

A recommendation in 45. Shows good ammo but no comparison with standard ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28V7xQoZjc

Observation: there is not a great difference in bullet performance between a 4 1/4" barrell vs. a 3.5" barrel. Make the barrel shorter and you begin to see a difference.

defjon above is on the right track. The bottom line IMHO and the opinion of others, get the ammo you have some confidence in, that runs reliably in your gun, in your hands and practice shot placement and gun skills.

tipoc

 

[cw308]

agtman
My NA came with CT Laser grips , a nice add on being it has trench sights , it's my favorite carry . I always practice at 21' distance and the bullet hits the red dot at that distance move to 25 yards it's a baseball size group . Pretty good for a carry . I use to carry a Chief 5 shot SN , then a 3" HB Smith 357 . The NA has served me well 230 fmj 's . I wouldn't want to get hit with a 22lr.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Observation: there is not a great difference in bullet performance between a 4 1/4" barrell vs. a 3.5" barrel. Make the barrel shorter and you begin to see a difference.

A few years ago I set out to quantify the velocity loss as barrel length decreased. I think I mentioned that in an earlier post in this thread. I'm basically a 1911 guy, so my baseline was the 1911 in .45 ACP with a 5" barrel. I grabbed samples of several ammo types, and 1911s in 5", 4-1/4", 3-1/2", and 3" barrel lengths.

I used eight different brands and types of commercial ammunition (no handloads for this test). The average velocity for all the ammo types by barrel length was:

5" -- 907 fps
4-1/4" -- 823
3-1/2" -- 826
3" -- 806

Yes, I know -- the 3-1/2" barrel should not be faster than the 4-1/4" barrel -- but it was, for four of the eight samples. And two others were very, VERY close. All the guns were Para-Ordnance, which I hoped would make the barrels somewhat equal in terms of manufacturing, but some of the guns were older than others so that may have played a part.

I have been meaning for quite some time to repeat the experiment, but the next time I'll use two pistols in each barrel length rather than one, fewer types of ammunition, and more shots in each string. (If I ever find that round twoit I've been looking for).

 

[corneileous]

Colt NA here also. My EDC load-out starts with one +P 230gn JHP in the chamber, followed by seven 230gn FMJ cartridges in the magazine.

I've tested this combo repeatedly and haven't had any failure to feed or cycle. And at the real-world 'combat distances' in which you'd likely engage an attacker with a 3" 1911, keeping all those rounds COM isn't difficult if you put in the time to practice drawing and firing from concealment at close range.

I use a reduced silhouette and have come to appreciate the NA's trench-sight system. (The NA is the same as Colt's Defender but with a 'gutter'-type sight instead of the Novaks).

Why the FMJ’s carried as defense rounds??

I considered something +P but this Springfield XDE lacks the weight of something like a Colt Defender so standard pressure is all I’m interested in.


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[cw308]

In some situations while serving in the military we carried a 1911 5" as a back up loaded with 230 hardball nothing else .I would think if other rounds would do a better job in the weapon it would have been issued.

 

[corneileous]

At the risk of sounding like I'm oversimplifying things, I would load up with whatever 45 acp round you can shoot most accurately and quickly.

It's a pretty good round in most formats against 2 legged threats.

I might advise a properly powered 10mm if big 4 legged threats are common.

Although that is important but if the round you choose isn’t proficient enough to expand with proper penetration in an assailant, it really doesn’t matter how good’a shot you are.


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[Hal]

it really doesn’t matter how good’a shot you are.

Spray & pray huh?

Of course, it matters how "good" a shot you are.

There are two things & two things only - when it comes to self defense.

- Things you have control over.

- Things you don't have control over.

You have control over how well you shoot.
The rest, fall under the 2nd heading & you leave up to your best shot at buying what you hope will work.

A FMJ - or the most optimal JHP - all have the same terminal effect when you miss.

 

[corneileous]

Spray & pray huh?

Of course, it matters how "good" a shot you are.

There are two things & two things only - when it comes to self defense.

- Things you have control over.

- Things you don't have control over.

You have control over how well you shoot.
The rest, fall under the 2nd heading & you leave up to your best shot at buying what you hope will work.

A FMJ - or the most optimal JHP - all have the same terminal effect when you miss.

No, not “spray and pray”. You took that ridiculously out of context. It always matters being a good shot, I was just saying it like that because your ammunition choice is just as important as how well ya shoot it. You could be a crack shot but have two bullets pass right through somebody, not even hardly doing any damage at all, but get lodged in a passerby behind your intended target.

Bottom line, I’m not just looking for ammunition that shoots good- I looking for something that’s gonna still do it’s intended job once it hits my target. Unfortunately from what I’ve read, 45acp is pretty slow as it is but because of my short-barreled pistol,
I certainly don’t wanna feel like I’m trying to launch a 747 off the flight deck of an aircraft carrier when it comes time to stop an assailant.


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[Hal]

Although that is important but if the round you choose isn’t proficient enough to expand with proper penetration in an assailant, it really doesn’t matter how good’a shot you are.

Excuse me - but - exactly how is it out of context?

What I'm seeing here is someone takes an unadvised shot - they either failed to check the backstop or - didn't care what they were shooting at/into and budda-bing-budda-boom - their round sails through the bad guy's arm & nails some blue-haired old woman wearing a cloth homemade Corona mask square in the chest.

I'm far less concerned about how my bullet is going to work than I am about where it's going to end up.
Anyone that's going to take a risky shot - where a miss or shoot through is going to hit someone - had best go back to square one & start paying attention to the basics.

& yes - I DO call that "spray and pray".

 

[corneileous]

Excuse me - but - exactly how is it out of context?

What I'm seeing here is someone takes an unadvised shot - they either failed to check the backstop or - didn't care what they were shooting at/into and budda-bing-budda-boom - their round sails through the bad guy's arm & nails some blue-haired old woman wearing a cloth homemade Corona mask square in the chest.

I'm far less concerned about how my bullet is going to work than I am about where it's going to end up.
Anyone that's going to take a risky shot - where a miss or shoot through is going to hit someone - had best go back to square one & start paying attention to the basics.

& yes - I DO call that "spray and pray".

How was it taken out of context? Well for starters, you took what I said and made it sound like I was saying that shot placement doesn’t matter at all.... that’s not what I was saying. Being as close to spot on with your shots as possible is very important. Using a gun that you shoot well and using a caliber that still allows you to shoot well even follow-up shots, is just as important but… if your ammo doesn’t do what it supposed to do, or can’t do what it’s supposed to do because of limitations of barrel length then those well-placed shots really ain’t gonna matter a whole lot.

Not having a bullet that penetrates deeply enough to where the vital organs are and doesn’t have enough velocity to fully expand and create the wound channel that it needs to make, doesn’t matter how precise those shots are. Hell even wadcutters are probably gonna be better if whether or not you’re worried about your bullet penetrating enough or expanding because at least one of those won’t deflect off bone when it hits it; that sharp edge will cut through that bone and create more damage at least that way.

But yes, I’m not saying a well-placed shot or what you just described, a piss poor shot that went through your assailants arm. Unfortunately, that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s starting to sound to me like you don’t care what the hell comes out the end of your barrel, as long as it’s a well-placed shot that’s all that matters.

But you know, stress is a big thing. Fear is a big thing. Having things happen lightning quick is also another thing. You can train all you want to think you could be 110% prepared for any time anything lightning quick is ever going to happen to you, but the chances of being as quick and precise in a real life situation is not gonna be the same as when you’re out there on the range shooting at a paper target.

But again, I’m not saying that shot placement is not important. I’m not saying that having a gun too large for your hands is not important. I’m not saying that trying to shoot a caliber that’s too much for you is not important either, all I’m saying is that it all goes hand-in-hand. Making sure you have the right ammunition that does what it’s supposed to it’s just as critical at stopping someone with something as inadequate as a handgun.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Excuse me - but - exactly how is it out of context?

What I'm seeing here is someone takes an unadvised shot - they either failed to check the backstop or - didn't care what they were shooting at/into and budda-bing-budda-boom - their round sails through the bad guy's arm & nails some blue-haired old woman wearing a cloth homemade Corona mask square in the chest.

Nobody (other than you) said anything about taking unadvised shots. To use your example -- suppose you take an "advised" shot, and either stress shakes your hand or the adversary moves. You don't hit squarely in center-of-mass, but you hit him in the shoulder or the fleshy part of the lower abdomen, on one side.

Bullet design and performance certainly could make the difference in that case between over-penetrating or not over-penetrating. If the only "advised" shot is one that we can 100% guarantee will hit exactly in the center of the thoracic cavity, then none of us should ever carry a firearm when we leave the house.

 

[zeke]

Have been a fan of 3 in 45 acp since they commonly were manufactured. Preference for rounds was 230 gn, usually a jhp at plus p velocity. Experimented a lot with velocity's, and most rounds averaged bout 100 fps loss from 5 in to 3 in. Wasn't long ago that loss of velocity mattered if you were wanting the standard jhp to expand, including some premium rounds, according some early published exp/penetration depths. Long time favorite was Hdy 230 xtp at about 820 fps from 3 incher. Was not worried about huge expansion, and wanted to keep what some label as excessive penetration.

Have now considered/started on rounds with less velocity. Coated 215 lfp with large meplat at 750- 800 fps from 3 in. Less recoil, less pressure, not abusive to pistol to practice with , effective penetration and look just like target rounds.

 

[JERRYS.]

Excuse me - but - exactly how is it out of context?

What I'm seeing here is someone takes an unadvised shot - they either failed to check the backstop or - didn't care what they were shooting at/into and budda-bing-budda-boom - their round sails through the bad guy's arm & nails some blue-haired old woman wearing a cloth homemade Corona mask square in the chest.

I'm far less concerned about how my bullet is going to work than I am about where it's going to end up.
Anyone that's going to take a risky shot - where a miss or shoot through is going to hit someone - had best go back to square one & start paying attention to the basics.

& yes - I DO call that "spray and pray".

first, its badda boom badda bing.

next, how many shoot outs have you been in. I've had two and know of others first have had some too. ***what was behind our attackers was not any of our concerns. being shot at and stabbed meant we drew our side arms and fired at the threat. I'm sure there are some who had time and distance to line up the perfect shots, but I wasn't so lucky nor were a lot of other guys I know/knew..... when somebody is trying to murder you right now, close range, the time you take to check down range hazards and calculate risk to others will cost you your life. In my instance and the others I know of, it was the first shot that hit home that stopped the assault.

edited for wording.*** not our concern sounds incorrect. of course the safety of others is a concern, but its not what you think of when you are under attack.

 

[Hal]

I have nothing further to say on this.

The question was asked & I answered it and gave my reason why I carry the load I do.

Beyond that - the rest is just noise.

 

[agtman]

Originally Posted by agtman
Colt NA here also. My EDC load-out starts with one +P 230gn JHP in the chamber, followed by seven 230gn FMJ cartridges in the magazine.

I've tested this combo repeatedly and haven't had any failure to feed or cycle. And at the real-world 'combat distances' in which you'd likely engage an attacker with a 3" 1911, keeping all those rounds COM isn't difficult if you put in the time to practice drawing and firing from concealment at close range.

I use a reduced silhouette and have come to appreciate the NA's trench-sight system. (The NA is the same as Colt's Defender but with a 'gutter'-type sight instead of the Novaks).

Why the FMJ’s carried as defense rounds??

Why not?

FMJ is guaranteed to feed in any decent 1911, and the 230gn .45 ball cartridge has been, literally, putting human attackers face-down on the concrete or dirt for decades.

The +P 230gn JHP that's chambered first is there to impart first-round shock value into the upper thoracic. The next 7 rds of ball are for follow-up shots as needed. And at the distances I practice, there's really no significant difference in POI.

I considered something +P but this Springfield XDE lacks the weight of something like a Colt Defender so standard pressure is all I’m interested in.

With your adrenalin pumping in a fast-moving self-defense situation, you're not going to perceive any difference in felt-recoil as between the +P and standard ball load.

 

[corneileous]

I have nothing further to say on this.

The question was asked & I answered it and gave my reason why I carry the load I do.

Beyond that - the rest is just noise.

And, I thank you for doing that because that was pretty much all the point of this thread was just to see what people use and why they use it.

But quite frankly… and please don’t take this the wrong way but a lot of these responses that I read towards this, I really think that too many people are just only concerned about how well they can place their shots, but not really care about what their well-placed shots are going to do to the person who’s trying to injure them or attack them. But hey, I know it may sound like it but I’m not criticizing any of that. I’m just simply saying that I’m looking at a much larger picture. I already know that a short barrel 45 is probably one of those pistols that a lot of people think are worthless handguns because the barrel is really too short for that large and for that already slow of a caliber so, that’s why I’m trying to find out the best ammunition to use in it. Something that shoots good and something that’s more or less designed for a short barrel that’s going to make it expand and penetrate just as one would if it was a plain old 230 grain hollowpoint that got fired out of a full size 45.


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