Defense ammo for short-barreled 45
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MisterCrabby
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They’ve been around for a long time, tried and true. There is lots of data and comparisons with competitive products. I don’t think there is a significant real world gap in performance between gold dots, hst, sig, other name brand jhp. As someone said on this thread, I don’t want to get hit by any of em!!
I worry about 230 ball over penetrating. I don’t worry about jhp under penetrating from my 3.3” xde.
Anybody have facts to the contrary?
corneileous
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Again, are you using those regular ole 230 gr Speers in your XDE or are you using the stuff that Speer made specifically for short-barreled pistols??
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Nope - never a concern. At worst, the 230 grain Hydra Shok out of a short barrel will act like .45acp hardball.
.45 acp hardball - in the right spot - as much as I could ask for - most of the time.
If it expands, then it expands.
I like 230 grain Hydra Shoks for exactly the reason I gave.
7 of them into a hole smaller than a $.05 piece at 25 or so feet - when I took my time and did my part.
MisterCrabby
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TruthTellers
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I'm not sold on them for every caliber, but I am sold on them for the purpose of short barrel use because when the barrel lengths are 3 inches or less hollow point expansion is not a given due to lower velocity. This is especially true in regards to .380 where the Inceptor is my preferred ammo in LCP sized pistols.
When it gets to 9mm, .40, .45, that's where I think there are better options available that are JHP... except if we're talking a snub revolver, in which case I think these Inceptors are best.
For 9mm you're going to be able to find a hollow point that works from a short barrel, .40 probably, but I haven't looked hard because if I carry a short barrel semi auto pistol it's going to be a 9mm, and same goes for .45, but there are probably some short barrel ammo options out there for .45 ACP, but I would not be opposed to using Inceptor in .45 ACP if I was unsure that a hollow point ammo would work.
corneileous
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They look like they might be a decent round but, I don’t know. I think I’m just gonna stick with the speer gold dot short barrel 45 hollow points that I found that I didn’t even know they made.
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corneileous
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The wild card is - "knew for a fact".
There is no such thing.
You can have a reasonable expectation that you spent you money wisely on something that should perform as advertised.
I prefer to put my faith in my abilities - since that's something I have 100% control over.
If I don't deliver the shot to where it's supposed to go - that's on me.
There is no such thing.
You can have a reasonable expectation that you spent you money wisely on something that should perform as advertised.
I prefer to put my faith in my abilities - since that's something I have 100% control over.
If I don't deliver the shot to where it's supposed to go - that's on me.
There are many decent choices for self defense ammo for short barreled guns. Particularly if you are looking for 200 gr and 185 gr. JHP bullets. I personally prefer these from my Colt Defender and have used them for years.
Go here and look around. Click on the pics of the boxes of ammo for the technical specs. This will provide you a look at some of what is available.
https://www.midwayusa.com/45-acp/br...%7C1&Ntpc=1&Ntpr=1&customerSelectedSort=False
You can also look here...
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/.45-acp-automatic/ammunition/handgun-ammo/?brand=.45ACP/Automatic
You can get alot of these at gun shows, on line or have your local gunatorium order you some.
I also encourage you to go here...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto2.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
Also here, Brass Fetcher which is much more accurate in it's testing than Lucky Gunner
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/45 ACP/45 ACP.html
Here gel tests...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone Simulant/45 ACP Bone Test.html
tipoc
Go here and look around. Click on the pics of the boxes of ammo for the technical specs. This will provide you a look at some of what is available.
https://www.midwayusa.com/45-acp/br...%7C1&Ntpc=1&Ntpr=1&customerSelectedSort=False
You can also look here...
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/.45-acp-automatic/ammunition/handgun-ammo/?brand=.45ACP/Automatic
You can get alot of these at gun shows, on line or have your local gunatorium order you some.
I also encourage you to go here...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto2.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
Also here, Brass Fetcher which is much more accurate in it's testing than Lucky Gunner
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/45 ACP/45 ACP.html
Here gel tests...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone Simulant/45 ACP Bone Test.html
tipoc
corneileous
New member
True, there is no way to know what any bullet is going to do in any real world situation but not using something for which it was designed, will sure be a factor in and increasing the chances of ensuring that you won’t get your desired results.
But having faith in your abilities to put your bullet where you want it to go is not the same thing, nor will it entirely matter if the bullets you’re using is not being fired out of the right type of pistol. You could put two regular old target FMJ’s right on target where you intend to put them but that doesn’t mean they’re going to do the job; heck, you might even put one through that person and then end up shooting somebody behind them.
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corneileous
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OK so, am I looking for a specific round, or what?
But what is it you use in your short barreled Colt defender?
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You're looking for what works best in your gun from your hands. Get a 185 gr. jhp bullet from any of the major manufacturers and begin working with that. The ones that are most reliable from your piece and that test well in 10% calibrated ballistic gel and pass the FBI protocols for defensive ammo are usually very good.
I provided a link to Brass fetcher which show the detail of these tests. Unlike Lucky Gunner which uses un-calibrated clear gel Brass Fetcher uses calibrated ballistic gel and tests ammo against the FBI protocols.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI Ammunition Protocol/FBI Ammunition Protocol.html
In my Defender(and my Commanders) I carry several different brands of ammo that I figure (hope) will do it's job and expand and penetrate. I have used Hornady Critical Defense, Cor Bon DPX, Winchester Silvertips, Speer Gold Dot, I've found Sig jhp ammo is good. Federal Premium and others. I avoid the exotic.
If the ammo tests reasonably well and works in my pistol reliably and accurately then the rest is up to me. I assume the jhp won't open up but hope it will. By assuming that I'm not surprised if it doesn't.
There are no magic bullets. Get a decent bullet, shoot enough of it to know it works well (50-100 rounds will tell). If it doesn't try another reputable brand. Practice with the same weight ball or flat point.
tipoc
I provided a link to Brass fetcher which show the detail of these tests. Unlike Lucky Gunner which uses un-calibrated clear gel Brass Fetcher uses calibrated ballistic gel and tests ammo against the FBI protocols.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI Ammunition Protocol/FBI Ammunition Protocol.html
In my Defender(and my Commanders) I carry several different brands of ammo that I figure (hope) will do it's job and expand and penetrate. I have used Hornady Critical Defense, Cor Bon DPX, Winchester Silvertips, Speer Gold Dot, I've found Sig jhp ammo is good. Federal Premium and others. I avoid the exotic.
If the ammo tests reasonably well and works in my pistol reliably and accurately then the rest is up to me. I assume the jhp won't open up but hope it will. By assuming that I'm not surprised if it doesn't.
There are no magic bullets. Get a decent bullet, shoot enough of it to know it works well (50-100 rounds will tell). If it doesn't try another reputable brand. Practice with the same weight ball or flat point.
tipoc
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Being a 1911 guy, I went immediately to the .45 ACP page. What I didn't see was anything telling me what barrel length their test gun was. And that's important. My preliminary testing has shown me that .45 ACP loses between 10% and 15% of muzzle velocity when dropping from a 5" barrel to a 3" barrel. The entire reason for developing these relatively new short-barrel loads is that the "standard" JHP bullets don't expand reliably at slower speeds. So in looking at the Brass Fetcher results, I would focus on the velocity they report for each load, and then I'd shoot my own 3" pistol to see if I'm getting anywhere near the velocity they report. If not, then their test results don't matter because the bullet may not perform the same (probably won't) at the reduced velocity.tipoc said:
I don't understand your logic of choosing to carry premium JHP ammunition if you're going to assume that it won't expand. What's the point? The short barrel stuff is designed so that it WILL expand at the slower velocity. Wouldn't it make better sesne to choose ammunition that's designed to work in your gun?
dontcatchmany
New member
I use Federal HST 230 gr in my two Shield 45s.
Work great for me!
On the MP-Forum very many of the Shield 45 owners are big on the HST 230 gr.
Work great for me!
On the MP-Forum very many of the Shield 45 owners are big on the HST 230 gr.
Speer Short Barrel God Dots are designed to expand at lower speeds. they are cut different to put it simply. my way of thinking is out of short bbls large caliber rounds at moderate velocities would be very effective with a solid round and a flat profile. an officer size 1911 or a C.A. bulldog with 3" or so bbls I'd load up with off the shelf SWC and be content.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm trying to learn. What does "Work great for me" mean, in the context of THIS particular thread?dontcatchmany said:
We are discussing whether or not "short barrel" ammunition has any real advantage over "standard" ammunition, when fired out of pistols with short barrels. To me, the criterion for assessing whether a self-defense round "works" is whether or not it expands as it's supposed to. How many people have you shot with the HST, and how effectively did it expand in each encounter?
Aguila makes some important points and asks good questions.
Brassfetcher generally tells you up front what gun and barrel length they are using:
From here: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone Simulant/45 ACP Bone Test.html
The Glock 36 has a 3.78" barrel which a quick look will tell you.
Here:
Where they shoot through both 10% and 20% ballistic gel (used by the military and denser than the standard 10%) they list the barrel length in the charts at the top.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic Gelatin Tests/45 ACP 20 Percent Ballistic Gelatin.html
In the vids they state that at the beginning of the vid.
I assume the JHP won't function as it should at all times the same as I assume my bullets, even well placed, will not stop the threat. It's mental preparation for follow up. Additionally if a jhp strikes bone (or a button, belt buckle, etc.) they often do not open as they should or as depicted in clear gel. Many good organs lie behind the rib cage so I look forward to hitting bone. It's good when they do perform as they do in gel tests but i don't assume all will.
Experience has taught me to be skeptical of the claims of manufacturers of any and all products when it comes to their promises. Somehow neither Axe deodorant or Old Spice Shaving gel have set hordes of young human females in aggressive sexual pursuit of my manliness.
So I'm skeptical of the claims that ammo designed for short barreled guns will give me the same results from a 2.5" barrel that they will from a 5". Paul Harrell as well as others have vids online about this and can be searched out.
Essentially they use a bullet that is identical, or so much so, that the difference is of no reliable use. They charge extra for the packaging and a claim is all.
This is part of the reason that I use 185 gr. bullets from my Colt Defender and my Commanders for self defense. The additional velocity aids in expansion. But I do not seek out "short barreled ammo" for the Defender vs. the Commander. The same bullets are likely used in both and I see no significant difference in performance. Rather I do not foolishly expect that a hideout gun (subcompact) will do the same as a full size piece or a compact piece.
If a fella wants to spend the extra money and worry about it go on ahead.
Select a decent jhp that you can shoot well. It's you that provides the magic and not the bullet.
tipoc
Brassfetcher generally tells you up front what gun and barrel length they are using:
From here: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone Simulant/45 ACP Bone Test.html
The Glock 36 has a 3.78" barrel which a quick look will tell you.
Here:
Where they shoot through both 10% and 20% ballistic gel (used by the military and denser than the standard 10%) they list the barrel length in the charts at the top.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic Gelatin Tests/45 ACP 20 Percent Ballistic Gelatin.html
In the vids they state that at the beginning of the vid.
I assume the JHP won't function as it should at all times the same as I assume my bullets, even well placed, will not stop the threat. It's mental preparation for follow up. Additionally if a jhp strikes bone (or a button, belt buckle, etc.) they often do not open as they should or as depicted in clear gel. Many good organs lie behind the rib cage so I look forward to hitting bone. It's good when they do perform as they do in gel tests but i don't assume all will.
Experience has taught me to be skeptical of the claims of manufacturers of any and all products when it comes to their promises. Somehow neither Axe deodorant or Old Spice Shaving gel have set hordes of young human females in aggressive sexual pursuit of my manliness.
So I'm skeptical of the claims that ammo designed for short barreled guns will give me the same results from a 2.5" barrel that they will from a 5". Paul Harrell as well as others have vids online about this and can be searched out.
Essentially they use a bullet that is identical, or so much so, that the difference is of no reliable use. They charge extra for the packaging and a claim is all.
This is part of the reason that I use 185 gr. bullets from my Colt Defender and my Commanders for self defense. The additional velocity aids in expansion. But I do not seek out "short barreled ammo" for the Defender vs. the Commander. The same bullets are likely used in both and I see no significant difference in performance. Rather I do not foolishly expect that a hideout gun (subcompact) will do the same as a full size piece or a compact piece.
If a fella wants to spend the extra money and worry about it go on ahead.
Select a decent jhp that you can shoot well. It's you that provides the magic and not the bullet.
tipoc
Aguila asks:
That's not a useful question.
I think the HST is a good bullet that can reliably expand and penetrate based on the tests used by the FBI which are reliable and more so than other tests. They show you how well they perform in those tests.
The test protocols are set based on teh experience of the FBI on the depth of penetration required, through different barriers, to incapacitate a person. They would also like expansion with that to increase stopping power (the ability to inflict damage).
That won't tell you "How many people have you shot with the HST, and how effectively did it expand in each encounter?" Because no one can tell you the answer to that question. There is no one out there who has shot enough people and then examined their bodies and the bullets to tell you.
There are the FBI protocols and that hopefully brings you into the ball park of what should work. Meaning what should reliably expand.
tipoc
That's not a useful question.
I think the HST is a good bullet that can reliably expand and penetrate based on the tests used by the FBI which are reliable and more so than other tests. They show you how well they perform in those tests.
The test protocols are set based on teh experience of the FBI on the depth of penetration required, through different barriers, to incapacitate a person. They would also like expansion with that to increase stopping power (the ability to inflict damage).
That won't tell you "How many people have you shot with the HST, and how effectively did it expand in each encounter?" Because no one can tell you the answer to that question. There is no one out there who has shot enough people and then examined their bodies and the bullets to tell you.
There are the FBI protocols and that hopefully brings you into the ball park of what should work. Meaning what should reliably expand.
tipoc
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