decocker vs safety on rami

Independent George said:
I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into these discussions anymore, but I'm bloated and a bit buzzed after Christmas dinner.

Regardless of the system, safe operation depends on training, and awareness of your own personal tendencies.

SA with safety requires a LOT of repetition to the point that flicking the safety off on presentation is automatic, and flicking it back on when the threat is gone is just as automatic. It also means not keeping any oddball guns around where the operation is the opposite of the rest of your guns (flicking 'up' to fire instead of down, for example).

DA/SA with decocker means mastering that DA pull until you're consistently hitting the 10 ring from prrsentation at 10 yards (so that you'll probably be able to hit the same target under stress at 5 yards) . That's probably no problem for the revolver guys, but for everyone else, it means lots of hours and lots of money on ammo. Unless you carry on an empty chamber, failing to train in DA is both dangerous and irresponsible.

Light strikers require perfect trigger discipline. That means making sure you don't touch off a round while transitioning from position 4 to 5, and keeping your finger off the trigger except for when you're definitely going to fire. This means training a negative, which is a lot harder than I think most people realize. It's easier to reinforce yourself to do things that result in you getting a shot on target (which rewards you) than with an action that results in no targets hit.

I prefer DA/SA with a decocker because that's where my instinctive tendencies reinforce the training; that won't be the same with everyone. If you put the hours in, any of these styles will be safe and effective; if you don't put the hours in, you will be a danger to yourself and others regardless of the mechanics.
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I think this is a pretty good summary. The only comment I would make is you only mention the need to keep your finger off the trigger with striker fired guns. A finger on the trigger when it's not supposed to be is dangerous whether it's a 10 lb. or a 5 lb. pull. If you're training to the extent you mention with DA/SA then that 10 lb. DA isn't going to slow you down or require that concentrated of an effort, because if it did then you wouldn't make the accuracy requirement you give. While I agree that in terms of physics that the DA takes more force, we constantly hear that when flooded with adrenaline folks rarely if ever remember the physical force required to press that trigger. Usually it's a decision and then bang.

This is not me trying to say DA/SA is bad or striker fired pistols don't have any negatives. This is me saying I've seen people develop bad habits with all systems and that can include using the "safety" in a design as a sort of excuse to skirt the standard laws of firearm safety. In this case keeping the finger on the trigger when it's not supposed to be. I do agree with what I think is your main point that striker fired pistols have less margin in terms of poor/careless handling, I just don't want folks to think the other designs shouldn't involve the same level of concern.
 
TunnelRat said:
This is me saying I've seen people develop bad habits with all systems and that can include using the "safety" in a design as a sort of excuse to skirt the standard laws of firearm safety. In this case keeping the finger on the trigger when it's not supposed to be. I do agree with what I think is your main point that striker fired pistols have less margin in terms of poor/careless handling, I just don't want folks to think the other designs shouldn't involve the same level of concern.
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That's a great point, and I agree - but the point I stupidly left out is that when you have to take a positive action (like flicking a safety or decocking lever), it can actually helps some people (me!) remember to take their finger off the trigger because it is something to actively do, with tactile feedback.

It seems counterintuitive, but I've seen it in others, and it's definitely true with me. If I have to actively thumb the decocker, feeling that click tells my brain that I've got one more step to go, and then I remove my finger instinctively. With a striker, it's an entirely passive sequence, and therefore requires more effort on my part.

And like I said, everybody's different, and the different systems will suit different people. You just have to be honest about what works best with yourself, and then really train at it.
 
TunnelRat said:
This is not me trying to say DA/SA is bad or striker fired pistols don't have any negatives. This is me saying I've seen people develop bad habits with all systems and that can include using the "safety" in a design as a sort of excuse to skirt the standard laws of firearm safety. In this case keeping the finger on the trigger when it's not supposed to be. I do agree with what I think is your main point that striker fired pistols have less margin in terms of poor/careless handling, I just don't want folks to think the other designs shouldn't involve the same level of concern.
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So many of us, at least early on, read, and watch good shooters, and try to learn to do things right. Then we practice -- a lot -- believing that "practice makes perfect."

The problem is that only "perfect practice makes perfect," and guidance, instruction and training tips from competent instructors is what most of us don't get until much later in the learning process.

As a consequence, we often practice the wrong things, not knowing they're wrong. But we very proficient at doing those wrong things.

Unlearning the things we taught ourselves is very hard. :)
 
I just bought a CZ 75BD 9mm with a decocker (no safety) as my bedside home defense gun. I just can't predict what state of mind I would be in if I woke from a deep sleep to find someone breaking in my house, or even in my bedroom. The combination of fear and adrenaline may overcome my training, so I want a gun that goes bank when I pull the trigger - period. I keep the CZ loaded, chambered, and at half-cock. Yes the first shot will be less accurate, but at close range it should still be effective, and a lot better than no bang at all. Training is great but I prefer a sure thing when my life is on the line and I am in a panic, and I don't know how to train for panic. If I had the luxury of time to think I could always manually cock the hammer from the half-cocked position to get an SA first round. Also the decocker is safer than manually thumbing the hammer down on a live round.

For carry I bought a SCCY CPX-2 DAO with no safety. The long trigger pull is similar to my SP101 revolver but much smoother and a bit lighter (8lbs). I love the 10 round magazine in a very small and light 9mm, and the large bright three dot sights. My second choice was a Ruger LC9s but the striker trigger was just too light and would require the safety on when carrying.

TomNJVA
 
I carried a CZ75B for several years and I assumed I'd just lower the hammer manually if I ever had to use it for self defense. Then I was able to participate in some stress inoculation training and I realized just how much fine motor skills really do degrade under stress. I decided I wanted no part of trying to lower the hammer under those conditions.
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Why would you need or want to decock a 75 B in the midst of an adrenalin storm? Just activate the safety, reholster, then calm down.
 
I don't carry cocked and locked, and I like DA/SA. I own a 75 BD and a PCR. I have to decock every time I put one in the pipe before I carry, so the decocker on my carry gun suits me just fine. According to my laserlyte, I'm not too bad with the first shot from half cock, so I'm not worried about the little bit of extra weight from the first DA shot. If I ever found a Rami w/decocker at the LGS, my wallet would be a little lighter that day.
 
I don't like thumb safeties.

There, I said it.

In truth, I am of the camp that I want my firearm to be ready to fire when I draw it. I don't want to have to rely on a reflex to disengage a safety, and I don't want to carry a weapon with a safety and "not use it" because I have a healthy fear and respect for Old Man Murphy and his laws. For this reason, My CZ 75 is a BD model, and my compact is a PCR.

In addition, my carry lineup includes revolvers, which don't have safeties, which makes my life easier.

The only gun I would carry with a safety is a 1911 pattern pistol, and while I have an affinity for them in terms of their design and the nostalgia, I prefer to carry something that doesn't require additional steps to be ready to fire aside from pulling the trigger.

Now, I am doing what I believe is right for me. I know plenty of people would rather have the safety, would rather carry cocked and locked, etc. That's great, as long as they are practiced in their method of carry. I don't see either as inherently more dangerous or more safe, but both have their advantages and disadvantages.
 
I prefer a decocker. DA/SA. I prefer the longer/heavier trigger pull for personal protection. if i am in a high stress situation and adreniline is pumping the last thing i want is a light trigger. Ill reserve the light SAO triggers for target pistols. Regardless of the choice it all comes down to practice, practice, practice.
 
Given all the fear about forgetting to deactivate a thumb safety during a DGU, is there any evidence of anyone ever being harmed by this?

We have all sorts of credible stories of people NDing safetiless guns, and some credible stories of a person losing his safety-equipped gun to a bad guy who was not able to shoot because he didn't know how to unsafe the gun.

I know it is possible to forget to disengage a safety, as it has happened to me at the range and while hunting. But, the remedy is so simple and quick that I doubt pulling the trigger on a safety locked gun would prove to be a disaster in all but the most up close and rapid gunfight.

Again, any concrete empirical evidence of someone losing a defensive gunfight with one's own sidearm because of forgetting to deactivate a safety?
 
Limnophile said:
Given all the fear about forgetting to deactivate a thumb safety during a DGU, is there any evidence of anyone ever being harmed by this?
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Limnophile said:
I know it is possible to forget to disengage a safety, as it has happened to me at the range and while hunting.
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If something can happen during a low stress incident, than it stands to reason that it can happen in a high stress incident. While I don't have any evidence, it seems rather common-sense.

Limnophile said:
We have all sorts of credible stories of people NDing safetiless guns, and some credible stories of a person losing his safety-equipped gun to a bad guy who was not able to shoot because he didn't know how to unsafe the gun.
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You specify safetiless guns, but do you have any evidence suggesting that guns without safeties have NDs more often than those with safeties? In addition, while you are asking for evidence, you do not provide any. Stating the existance of evidence does not equate providing evidence.

Limnophile said:
Again, any concrete empirical evidence of someone losing a defensive gunfight with one's own sidearm because of forgetting to deactivate a safety?
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As I said before, I cannot provide any evidence on either side, and I don't know what the evidence would suggest if I had it.
 
Limnophile said:
Why would you need or want to decock a 75 B in the midst of an adrenalin storm? Just activate the safety, reholster, then calm down.
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I am not going around this mountain again. Read the thread particularly my post 49
 
Independent George said:
This is an internet gun forum. Endlessly cycling through the same arguments ad infinitum is what we do. It's what we are.
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.45 v 9 v .40

AK V AR

Inform v Don't inform

Happy now
 
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