decocker vs safety on rami
- Thread starter pfisto22
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Walt Sherrill said:
I can't speak for anyone else but every time I get to participate in any training (2 days 5 times. Year) that's pretty much al we do. All courses of fire start by drawing from concealment.
I'm not concerned about manually decocking on a square range I'm talking about trying to do it after your first gunfight
Walt Sherrill
New member
Walt Sherrill said:
You've cherry-picking one of my comments, and left off related, clarifying information. The sentence you quoted was part of a larger statement and you showed it out of context. Read again what I said:
Walt Sherrill said:
Starting each training exercise from concealment in a live-fire course from concealment is not the same as practicing presentations to become more efficient and sure of that skill. In the example you cite, its just part of a larger drill. It's NOT all you do in that class.
Some of those who take classes are certainly trying to address the issue. But I'd argue that a relatively small percentage of folks participating here take those classes, and even when they do, they don't do it all that often. If for no other reason than they can be quite expensive. There are exceptions.
Moonglum said:
I said this earlier (in response #25):
Walt SherrillT said:
If you aren't comfortable decocking, clear the weapon: drop the mag and rack the slide. No real risk, there.
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The point I'm trying to make is in the aftermath of a real world self defense incident I really don't think your average permit holder is going to have the presence of mind to unload the gun or the fine motor skills to manually lower the hammer unless he's trained it and practiced and practiced and practiced and that under stress .
As you said most permit holders don't carry often and don't train often. If that's true then they certainly don't have the muscle memory ingrained that a competitor or someone who trains a lot would.
My honest opinion is that most permit holders (me included) are going to be standing there (probably puking their guts out) with a loaded gun in their hands saying " Oh Jesus, oh Jesus, oh my God mother***** I shot him. Oh Jesus I shot him."
For me I switched from a CZ75B to a 4006 because I didn't trust myself to remember to engage the safety (I never practiced it) and I sure as Hell didn't want to throw trying to manually lower the hammer into that mix. ETA once I switched I started practicing decocking the weapon immediately after firing/ETA
Because I've spent the last couple years training draw, fire X number of shots, reholster. I'm hoping that I'll reholster in accordance with my training before I start puking (What I really hope is that I'm never in that situation)
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Moonglum said:
Manually decocking is not the only option. You can engage the safety and holster the weapon just as you did when you first readied your gun for use -- or you can just clear it. If you engage the safety and you need to use the weapon again, you're ready to go -- just like a decocker-equpped weapon.
There are no fine motor skills involved in clearing a weapon: if you have the physical ability to press a decocker lever you can also press the mag release. Racking the slide to clear a chambered round is not a fine motor skill, either. (The hand-over method is less difficult than sling-shotting.)
I agree with your closing point -- and hope that if it ever happens, and someone ends up puking, it's one of us, and not the other guy.
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In response to Walt Sherrill
I keep trying to say this and I don't think I'm saying right.
I believe that post shooting (and that's the only situation I'm addressing here) the average person is going to be so overwhelmed by circumstances that they're not going to be able to process options and pick one especially one that they haven't practiced in training.
I believe that in that situation you're going to follow your dominate muscle memory. That's why I practiced decocking immediately after firing when I switched to the 4006.
JMO You're better off with the simpler manual of arms. If I chose the manual safety I'd carry condition 1 all the time.
If I wanted to carry DA/SA I'd choose the decocker.
All that said I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I just want to make sure you understand what I'm trying to say.
I keep trying to say this and I don't think I'm saying right.
I believe that post shooting (and that's the only situation I'm addressing here) the average person is going to be so overwhelmed by circumstances that they're not going to be able to process options and pick one especially one that they haven't practiced in training.
I believe that in that situation you're going to follow your dominate muscle memory. That's why I practiced decocking immediately after firing when I switched to the 4006.
JMO You're better off with the simpler manual of arms. If I chose the manual safety I'd carry condition 1 all the time.
If I wanted to carry DA/SA I'd choose the decocker.
All that said I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I just want to make sure you understand what I'm trying to say.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
OK. I understand. I think I always did. I just disagree with your underlying assumption that the decocker is easier to use and more safe than using a safety. Both methods are dependent on learning to use the weapon properly.
I'm not trying to convince you that you should switch to a safety-equipped weapon/ I am trying to show that your claim that a decocker-equipped weapon is innately more safe or less difficult to use than a safety-equipped weapon is flawed. The ease of use and the level of safety provided using either method is about the same -- and to be effective, the shooter must train and practice either way.
As I said before, you don't have to manually decock a safety-equipped weapon when you've finished using it. Just flip the safety. And if you want to clear the weapon, that can be done with shaking hands -- your fingers don't have to be near the trigger. If your training FORCES you to do something when it's inappropriate, your training is also inappropriate.
- If you can train yourself to press the decocker lever at the end of a string of fire or altercation, you can also train yourself to engage the safety when you're through.
- If you can train yourself to properly manage the DA/SA transition with a decocker-equipped gun, you can also train yourself to disengage the safety when taking the first shot.
I'm not trying to convince you that you should switch to a safety-equipped weapon/ I am trying to show that your claim that a decocker-equipped weapon is innately more safe or less difficult to use than a safety-equipped weapon is flawed. The ease of use and the level of safety provided using either method is about the same -- and to be effective, the shooter must train and practice either way.
As I said before, you don't have to manually decock a safety-equipped weapon when you've finished using it. Just flip the safety. And if you want to clear the weapon, that can be done with shaking hands -- your fingers don't have to be near the trigger. If your training FORCES you to do something when it's inappropriate, your training is also inappropriate.
Let's go back to Rami
I just purchased the Rami with the safety option as I could not find one in my area. Interesting thing about the Rami - the safety will only engage when the hammer is cocked. When in the lowered position it will not engage. so you are basically carrying it with the safety off. I wouldn't carry the weapon with the hammer back and safety on so it is a moot point other than I have to lower the hammer with a round in the chamber. Not an issue for me. Hope this helps you understand this feature a little better as it is different from others I own.
I just purchased the Rami with the safety option as I could not find one in my area. Interesting thing about the Rami - the safety will only engage when the hammer is cocked. When in the lowered position it will not engage. so you are basically carrying it with the safety off. I wouldn't carry the weapon with the hammer back and safety on so it is a moot point other than I have to lower the hammer with a round in the chamber. Not an issue for me. Hope this helps you understand this feature a little better as it is different from others I own.
That's not what I'm claiming.
I agree with you a safety lever and a decocking lever are egual.
What I'm saying is IMO you're better off training with a safety OR a decocker than training to try to manually decock a gun with a safety under stress.
So since the OP bought the safety equipped RAMI IMO he should practice engaging the safety and reholstering at the end of his string rather than trying to manually lower the hammer.
My rationale is he develops that muscle memory and safely reholsters when the incident is over. Later when he's a little calmer he can manually lower the hammer as circumstances permit.
Over the course of my training I have developed a philosophy that the simpler I make the process and the fewer options I have to decide between and the fewer fine motor skill tasks I have to accomplish under stress the better off I am.
Based on that my personal choice is to only carry striker fired pistols in the same type of holster in the same location.
Pull, point, shoot, take your finger off the trigger. KISS
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Fine. We can agree.
As I said earlier, I almost NEVER decock manually. I either engage the safety or clear the weapon. But I know how to do both procedures, and can do them safely. It doesn't take long to become proficient at either task. Some gun game division rules require that all hammer-fired guns be decocked before the start of course of fire. They also require that guns in all divisions be unloaded and cleared at the end of each course of fire.
Learning to decock manually and to safely clear a weapon are two basic gun handling skills that aren't hard to learn. They arguably should be learned, even if the gun owner doesn't play guns that could ever require manual decocking. You will certainly need to clear your weapon properly, and some people drop the mag but don't clear the chamber -- and for any gun without a mag safety, that's an accident waiting to happen!
Manual decocking seems to have become a top-of-mind safety concern for many shooters, but with little real-world evidence that their concer is truly justified. Maybe the problem is that many folks just haven't learned how simple it is to do it properly! I'd suggest that this top-of-mind safety concern has become a virtual superstition -- something that people fear for reasons they don't fully understood.
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As I said earlier, I almost NEVER decock manually. I either engage the safety or clear the weapon. But I know how to do both procedures, and can do them safely. It doesn't take long to become proficient at either task. Some gun game division rules require that all hammer-fired guns be decocked before the start of course of fire. They also require that guns in all divisions be unloaded and cleared at the end of each course of fire.
Learning to decock manually and to safely clear a weapon are two basic gun handling skills that aren't hard to learn. They arguably should be learned, even if the gun owner doesn't play guns that could ever require manual decocking. You will certainly need to clear your weapon properly, and some people drop the mag but don't clear the chamber -- and for any gun without a mag safety, that's an accident waiting to happen!
Manual decocking seems to have become a top-of-mind safety concern for many shooters, but with little real-world evidence that their concer is truly justified. Maybe the problem is that many folks just haven't learned how simple it is to do it properly! I'd suggest that this top-of-mind safety concern has become a virtual superstition -- something that people fear for reasons they don't fully understood.
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Even if you know how to do it properly, lowering the hammer manually still involves a human in the loop more than using a dedicated decocker. Are we talking an incredibly small added risk? Yes I would say so, and as you pointed out before there are more areas of concern in relation to firearms (accidents involving people thinking firearms are unloaded when they're not far outweigh accidents when decocking). That said, less risk is still less risk. The chances of us needing a firearm to defend ourselves in the first place are relatively small and yet we still choose to own firearms to mitigate that risk (as well as practice our rights).
If you don't plan to use the pistol cocked and locked and you know ahead of time all you plan to use it is as DA/SA, then to me it makes sense to get the dedicated decocker models. You can argue against DA/SA, and I believe we've covered that pretty well here and in many, many other threads. But if that's what the system a person has chosen I would advise them to look for a dedicated decocker. Now if you think you might want to try cocked and locked as well then by all means go for the safety models. I like the CZs because you can't engage the safety when decocked (at least that's what I remember from my 75B) so you have less to worry about engaging a safety inadvertently if you're using it as DA/SA.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
That same human is in the loop with any gun-handling activity... How is decocking really different?
When manually decocking, problems arise ONLY if you don't do it properly: don't keep the gun muzzle down and pointed in a safe direction. If you do keep the muzzle pointed in the right direction and you somehow have a negligent discharge, there's not likely to be a problem. Just some embarrassment. Drawing from the holster and pressing the trigger has that same human in the loop with even more dire consequences possible. That same human is the one you mentioned earlier, who fires the "unloaded" gun. That can happen at home, in a gun game, or at the range. It seems as though there's a double-standard sometimes being applied when manual decocking is addressed. If you screw things up while drawing, you can shoot yourself, anything nearby, or someone else in a pretty large arc. Those who shoot at an indoor range should examine the ceiling and walls the next time you shoot there: a large number of the bullet holes or scars in or on the walls and ceiling are from people learning to draw and fire...
I agree that if you don't want to do cocked & locked (and aren't interested in having C&L as an option) then a decocker-equipped gun is a better choice. But not because it's innately more safe. (And I don't think YOU made that claim.)
I am beginning to prefer striker-fired guns over the other options, but would argue that most of the "safeties" associated with that type of weapon are of questionable value -- I think their safety functions are more apparent than real. Why? Most of those "safety" triggers are "shorter" and easier to press than the trigger of a true DAO semi-auto or revolver, most can't be blocked by a safety lever, and none of them keep the shooter from firing an what they believe to be an "unloaded" gun. I wonder how long we'll have to wait before a new superstition arises about the very dangerous triggers of striker-fired guns?
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As someone that's had one, it's more than "some embarrassment".
I think you get that my point is that having a dedicated decocker takes the human out of the loop at one point. Obviously the human is still in the loop in the rest of gun handling. I never claimed otherwise. I even admitted that what we're discussing is a small percentage of firearm accidents. I don't feel the need to rehash that again.
Striker fired triggers really aren't relevant to the OP's post. In an effort to avoid thread drift, I'd suggest opening a new thread if you want to go that route.
Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
That wasn't my intent. My point is that people seem to fear the things they don't understand... and they often can't tell you WHY they're afraid.
I don't have an issue with manually decocking the gun I did it with my RAMI all the time on the square range.
I (thank God) never had to do it on a 2 way range and that's the situation that freaks me out because I'm performing a fine motor skill task at what is very likely to be the most stressful moment of my life with shaking, sweaty hands, likely while I'm heaving an possibly after I've been shot.
I'd rather either use the safety or the decocker.
I (thank God) never had to do it on a 2 way range and that's the situation that freaks me out because I'm performing a fine motor skill task at what is very likely to be the most stressful moment of my life with shaking, sweaty hands, likely while I'm heaving an possibly after I've been shot.
I'd rather either use the safety or the decocker.
Decocking doesn't make a gun inoperable. If you can't shoot in DA then you should pick a different system.
I know what you're saying, I'm just of the opinion that if that's the system you choose then you need to be proficient hammer down or back and if I'm going to the ready position decocking is what I've been taught. Knowing when to holster so you're not gun in hand when the police show up is always tricky.
Independent George
New member
I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into these discussions anymore, but I'm bloated and a bit buzzed after Christmas dinner.
Regardless of the system, safe operation depends on training, and awareness of your own personal tendencies.
SA with safety requires a LOT of repetition to the point that flicking the safety off on presentation is automatic, and flicking it back on when the threat is gone is just as automatic. It also means not keeping any oddball guns around where the operation is the opposite of the rest of your guns (flicking 'up' to fire instead of down, for example).
DA/SA with decocker means mastering that DA pull until you're consistently hitting the 10 ring from prrsentation at 10 yards (so that you'll probably be able to hit the same target under stress at 5 yards) . That's probably no problem for the revolver guys, but for everyone else, it means lots of hours and lots of money on ammo. Unless you carry on an empty chamber, failing to train in DA is both dangerous and irresponsible.
Light strikers require perfect trigger discipline. That means making sure you don't touch off a round while transitioning from position 4 to 5, and keeping your finger off the trigger except for when you're definitely going to fire. This means training a negative, which is a lot harder than I think most people realize. It's easier to reinforce yourself to do things that result in you getting a shot on target (which rewards you) than with an action that results in no targets hit.
I prefer DA/SA with a decocker because that's where my instinctive tendencies reinforce the training; that won't be the same with everyone. If you put the hours in, any of these styles will be safe and effective; if you don't put the hours in, you will be a danger to yourself and others regardless of the mechanics.
Regardless of the system, safe operation depends on training, and awareness of your own personal tendencies.
SA with safety requires a LOT of repetition to the point that flicking the safety off on presentation is automatic, and flicking it back on when the threat is gone is just as automatic. It also means not keeping any oddball guns around where the operation is the opposite of the rest of your guns (flicking 'up' to fire instead of down, for example).
DA/SA with decocker means mastering that DA pull until you're consistently hitting the 10 ring from prrsentation at 10 yards (so that you'll probably be able to hit the same target under stress at 5 yards) . That's probably no problem for the revolver guys, but for everyone else, it means lots of hours and lots of money on ammo. Unless you carry on an empty chamber, failing to train in DA is both dangerous and irresponsible.
Light strikers require perfect trigger discipline. That means making sure you don't touch off a round while transitioning from position 4 to 5, and keeping your finger off the trigger except for when you're definitely going to fire. This means training a negative, which is a lot harder than I think most people realize. It's easier to reinforce yourself to do things that result in you getting a shot on target (which rewards you) than with an action that results in no targets hit.
I prefer DA/SA with a decocker because that's where my instinctive tendencies reinforce the training; that won't be the same with everyone. If you put the hours in, any of these styles will be safe and effective; if you don't put the hours in, you will be a danger to yourself and others regardless of the mechanics.