decocker vs safety on rami

On and DA/SA I would go as far as to say it's necessary.

My SIGs are DA/SA and have their decockers. My HKs did too.

Now, if you have something like SIGs DAO / DAK or HKs LEM, that's different. You don't really need it.

1911 designs don't have it either. But I'm not a fan of safeties by any means. I actually dislike them greatly.

I go so far that when I do own an HK, I change them from V1 (decocker w/ safety, to carry cocked and locked if wanted to.) to a V3, (decocker only) which is more like my home base anyways.


So it's really up to you.
 
Decocker vs Safety is subjective to the shooter, but for me it depends on the gun. I like the system HK uses on their USP line, where you have both a safety and decocker within reach when using a normal grip. If I were stuck between having a decocker or safety for CC, I think I would go with the decocker (mainly because that is my only option with Sig). I don't mind the heavy DA pull as it adds an additional level of safety, but it really depends on how you want to carry. If you do not want to carry SA, or don't feel comfortable lowering the hammer on a live round, a decocker is the way to go.
 
This is very true at the range but what about in the middle of an adrenalin dump after a self defense incident?

I carried a CZ75B for several years and I assumed I'd just lower the hammer manually if I ever had to use it for self defense. Then I was able to participate in some stress inoculation training and I realized just how much fine motor skills really do degrade under stress. I decided I wanted no part of trying to lower the hammer under those conditions.
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In such a situation, you also have the option to flip the safety on and holster the gun. You don't HAVE to decock. If you feel you must fully deactivate the weapon, you can always drop the mag and rack the slide, letting the chambered round fall to the ground or into your hand.

I've got guns that allow me to go either way -- but none of the decocker-equipped guns have first shots that are as easy to get on target from "decocked" as the guns I own that have the single action option -- or striker-fired. Having the same trigger pull with each shot is apparently unappreciated by many folks, but I appreciate it.

Increasingly, I find myself drawn to decocker guns (like Glocks and S&W M&P Pros and my recent FNS-40s...). Some folks think these striker-fired guns are just as (or more) unsafe as safety-equipped guns.

My reasons for SA or striker-fired actions makes as much as any other approach -- different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you.
 
Having the same trigger pull with each shot is apparently unappreciated by many folks, but I appreciate it.
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I don't honestly think that's it and I think saying that is a bit misleading. I think there are a number of folks that feel uncomfortable disengaging a safety in a stressful situation. There are those that will argue that motor control and thought processing go down with adrenaline and at some point the group think became "safeties are too much trouble". For many years the semiauto you went with for a simple draw and shoot, no safety, was a DA/SA pistol.

I do think the DA pull has its own challenges, especially when tired, but I think for the typical self defense ranges the first shot accuracy is probably adequate and there are very skilled shooters that don't seem bothered by it. The key to it, like anything, is a lot of training. I would argue the same is true for the safety-equipped pistols. It must be trained to the point of subconscious behavior. One of my reasons for not owning one, besides stubby thumbs that make disengaging that safety with one hand a problem, is many of my pistols do not have a safety. I feel like standardizing manual of arms is a good idea and that's not going to happen with me and safeties.

As it stands I use what I consider to be the all around compromise: striker fired pistols. From what I have seen personally, any system can be run well with the appropriate dedication. The owner has to be realistic about whether the amount of dedication for a given system is something he/she is willing to invest. For years I shot DA/SA and got very good at it, in both modes. But the ease of shooting other systems and a few courses where I saw what happened when my fundamentals weren't as good (from exhaustion) convinced me to switch.

I'm not advocating either DA/SA or safety on this thread. I'm merely stating that my preference would be to choose beforehand and then choose either or for the reasons I stated.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
you also have the option to flip the safety on and holster the gun. You don't HAVE to decock
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I'm a firm believer that if what you practice on the range is trying to manually lower the hammer that's exactlywhat you'll do in a self defense situation.

I personally carry a striker fired pistol because keep your finger off the trigger is simple.
 
UY

TunnelRat said:
I don't honestly think that's it and I think saying that is a bit misleading. I think there are a number of folks that feel uncomfortable disengaging a safety in a stressful situation.
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Misleading? How? It was just an observation -- but it addresses an issue that few people with DA/SA, decocker-equipped guns address.

As to the danger of safeties or the lack thereof:

In the cases where I've observed negligent discharges, they were seldom associated with misusing the safety or mishandling the gun during decocking. It was usually from just doing something stupid in other situations... often during the draw. As noted, I also like striker-fired guns, but many folks seem just as worried about the lack of safeties and decockers in (most of) those guns, too. I'd argue that safeties or decocking are seldom an issue -- but it seems to be a BIG CONCERN. I've never really understood that.

If you listen to some folks here, the only SAFE guns are DA/SA guns with decockers. As I said, "different strokes for different folks."
 
Walt Sherrill said:
you also have the option to flip the safety on and holster the gun. You don't HAVE to decock.
Moonglum said:
I'm a firm believer that if what you practice on the range is trying to manually lower the hammer that's exactly what you'll do in a self defense situation.

I personally carry a striker fired pistol because keep your finger off the trigger is simple.
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I like striker-fired guns, too. Keeping your finger off the trigger would be a simple solution for all gun types.

That said, I'd like to think I'm able to adjust my behavior to fit the situation at hand, and won't become an unthinking slave to a "training-induced" routine. A couple of the pros I know and others that I've watched shoot, shoot 1911s and Glocks and other guns with different manuals of arms, and they don't seem to have a big problem of handling a different gun properly when its time to shut things down.

I don't decock a lot at the range. I decock just enough to stay handy with that basic skill. And I pay attention to what I'm doing with the barrel pointed in a safe direction. (Back when I was shooting IDPA regularly, it was all part of the "LOAD AND MAKE READY" routine when you started a course of fire.) At the range, I just load another mag and keep going. Or I clear the weapon.

I can't imagine why I'd want to decock a safety-equipped gun in a real-life self-defense situation, unless I was asked to hand the weapon over to an LEO. Then they'd probably say put it on the ground, and they'd clear it themselves.

With most of my decocker-equipped guns, I only decock if I'm practicing presentations from the holster. If I'm practicing presentations with a safety-equipped gun starting from cocked and locked, I engage the safety. Otherwise I ignore the safety. If I finishing up with a gun, I drop the mag and empty the chamber by racking the slide -- as I would do with with any of the guns I own.
 
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My first semi-auto pistol was a safety only, that blocked the FP when on,
and returned use of it when you flipped it to Fire. Always felt like that was the best of both worlds.

Honestly still trying to figure out decockers...not quite sure if I like 'em or not.
Leaning towards not...seems a bit lawyered to a guy who likes lever-actions & 6-guns ;)

"The hammer stayed cocked when on safe, which completely blocked the firing pin,
but allowed the trigger to be pulled and to release the hammer. Even when decockers appeared (later on),
they were an optional position after this same safety position."
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Walt Sherrill said:
Misleading? How? It was just an observation -- but it addresses an issue that few people with DA/SA, decocker-equipped guns address.



As to the danger of safeties or the lack thereof:



In the cases where I've observed negligent discharges, they were seldom associated with misusing the safety or mishandling the gun during decocking. It was usually from just doing something stupid in other situations... often during the draw. As noted, I also like striker-fired guns, but many folks seem just as worried about the lack of safeties and decockers in (most of) those guns, too. I'd argue that safeties or decocking are seldom an issue -- but it seems to be a BIG CONCERN. I've never really understood that.



If you listen to some folks here, the only SAFE guns are DA/SA guns with decockers. As I said, "different strokes for different folks."
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You're right misleading is the wrong word. I'd say more judgmental than misleading. You make it sound like people that use decockers haven't thought the process of using a gun through. Yet at the same time you say different strokes for different folks. It could be those people have thought it through and came to a different conclusion than you did. As I stated I'm not here to advocate one method over the other. But I have seen folks on a number of occasions seem to take it personally when folks use a different manual of arms than themselves. It is a decision that people don't typically make lightly so I can understand it somewhat, but at the same time what works for one person might not always work for others, as you said.

As to why safeties or decockers are such topics of conversation I'd imagine it has to do with the fact that for many people it is easier to worry about a choice on a firearm's mechanics than their own failing. That doesn't make it a good idea but it does jive with a lot of human behavior. Most negligent discharges I am familiar with come from thinking a firearm is unloaded when it isn't. As for the safeties and forgetting to disengage them like I said before I think it's a matter of training, either with a manual safety or decocker. For me personally it just comes down to personal preference.
 
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TunnelRat said:
You're right misleading is the wrong word. I'd say more judgmental than misleading. You make it sound like people that use decockers haven't thought the process of using a gun through. Yet at the same time you say different strokes for different folks.
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Note: saying you shouldn't be judgmental is being judgmental, too! :)

If what I've observed at many, many IDPA matches is any indication, SOME of the people who use decockers HAVEN'T thought through the process of using a gun of that type as completely as they might. Their results show. Their concern about the risks of decocking seem to outweigh their concern about first and second shot accuracy. I think the first two shots are very important in many self-defense situations.

Others have thought it through and those folks are arguably the ones who continue to practice until the use of the DA/SA action is less of a problem or a true non-issue. You can call that JUDGEMENTAL or you can call it an objective observation with a subjective explanation attached.

TunnelRat said:
As to why safeties or decockers are such topics of conversation I'd imagine it has to do with the fact that for many people it is easier to worry about a choice on a firearm's mechanics than their own failing. That doesn't make it a good idea but it does jive with a lot of human behavior. Most negligent discharges I am familiar with come from thinking a firearm is unloaded when it isn't. As for the safeties and forgetting to disengage them like I said before I think it's a matter of training, either with a manual safety or decocker. For me personally it just comes down to personal preference.
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Well, we can agree on those points, at least. Especially the part I underlined, above.
 
If what I've observed at many, many IDPA matches is any indication, SOME of the people who use decockers HAVEN'T thought through the process of using a gun of that type as completely as they might. Their results show. Their concern about the risks of decocking seem to outweigh their concern about first and second shot accuracy. I think the first two shots are very important in many self-defense situations.
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And on that I agree completely. I've seen many people buy a pistol and either not shoot it enough to develop both skill and familiarity with the pistol or they operate it differently at the range (not shooting in DA on DA/SA pistols or not practicing disengaging the safety on cocked and locked pistols). The tricky parts of any firearm must be practiced ad nauseam.

But what I observe with some isn't always indicative of the whole. That's my point. There will be those that roll their eyes and say, "So what?", but generalizations just rub me the wrong way. It's the easy out in a discussion and limits a person's ability to keep an open mind. That's not to say I'm not also guilty of making generalizations at times, but I try to resist the urge.
 
Raton... You always do this.. Always. Que clase de raton tu eres.



I'm so used to having used the decocker for years that sometimes when I rack one into my Glock's chamber, I swipe next to the slide release.

One of my good friends on this forum, he's so used to 1911's that when he racks on into his Glock or even draws his Glock, he swipes the imaginary safety up or down.

Anything can become habit.
 
Raton... You always do this.. Always. Que clase de raton tu eres.



I'm so used to having used the decocker for years that sometimes when I rack one into my Glock's chamber, I swipe next to the slide release.

One of my good friends on this forum, he's so used to 1911's that when he racks on into his Glock or even draws his Glock, he swipes the imaginary safety up or down.

Anything can become habit.
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Not sure why you mention me when nothing I said indicated that I thought either manual of arms couldn't become habit.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
That said, I'd like to think I'm able to adjust my behavior to fit the situation at hand, and won't become an unthinking slave to a "training-induced" routine. A couple of the pros I know and others that I've watched shoot, shoot 1911s and Glocks and other guns with different manuals of arms, and they don't seem to have a big problem of handling a different gun properly when its time to shut things down.
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i had essentially this same conversation with the guy that does my training. He switches platforms and shoots and competes with different guns. I asked him if it ever caused him a problem he said no and then he said "but I spend a hell of a lot more time on the range than you do.

so yeah I have no problem believing that a pro or someone who gets a lot
of training wouldn't have a problem but for me I want things as simple as I can.

I'm not saying a safety is bad I'm just saying that if you choose a safety instead of a decocker you should practice engaging the safety instead of trying to manually lower the hammer
 
Moonglum said:
I'm not saying a safety is bad I'm just saying that if you choose a safety instead of a decocker you should practice engaging the safety instead of trying to manually lower the hammer
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I agree. And generally that's what I do. (The only time I regularly decock manually is in gun matches where, in some competition classes, you must start from hammer down.) I do think, however, that manually decocking a weapon is a basic gun-handling skill that all shooters OUGHT to learn. And do it with a number of different guns, because while the steps are the same, the "FEEL" of doing it isn't.

Since most shooters with decocker weapons (or those decocking manually) will typically decock at the end of a firing session, there's no need to rush. If you have a real-world confrontation which causes you to use (or nearly use) lethal force, you're likely to have adrenaline surging through your system, and anything you do will require your complete attention.

Manually decocking seems far less dangerous to me than than drawing and firing -- where people often ARE rushing -- yet you seldom read comments on these forums about that basic skill (or lack of it)! That first shot often goes places it shouldn't. I suspect that MANY of the folks involved in this discussion don't really practice live-ammo presentations all that often. That may be because a relatively small percentage of all shooters actually carry their weapons concealed. Those who shoot competitively are the exception -- as practice increases both speed and accuracy, and leads to better scores.

If, when manually decocking, you keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and angled down toward the ground, and something slips (which can be prevented using proper technique) the worst that can happen is that you'll shoot the ground. That might be embarrassing if others are around, but it's not particularly dangerous. It's also not very likely! The fear of negligent discharge while decocking seems to be far more widespread than actual ND discharges while decocking. In discussions like this, almost nobody ever talks about even having actually done it or having seen it done.
 
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