DAO most defensible type of gun for concealed carry?

I find it interesting that in threads like this, so many people assume a case will be clear-cut. That's probably because most of us are the law-abiding, good neighbor types, and can't imagine that we would ever shoot in a situation that wasn't perfectly straight-forward.

The problem with that is that we won't be the ones who initiate the encounter. The odds are good that an attacker will either act when there are no witnesses, or when the witnesses are his accomplices.

Another assumption I see made quite frequently is that whatever happens, will happen in the home, and so Castle Doctrine will apply. Odd assumption to make, especially given how many members say it's paranoid to carry in the home... I am not one of those members, as I do carry, in belt or pocket holster, when at home, or anywhere else where it's legal to carry. However, I suspect that if I ever do get involved in a shooting, it probably will not be at home. Castle Doctrine will have no bearing - unless I'm in my car or my workplace, in certain states.

Stand Your Ground law states don't require retreat, but still require that all conditions justifying the use of deadly force be met.

In those states where retreat is required, it is only required if it can be done safely.

So, for sake of argument, let's say an attack occurs, by a guy with a knife, in a Wal-Mart parking lot that is not in field of view of a security camera, while we are alone. (No friends or family, no neutral witnesses, nobody.) To make things dicier, let's make the assailant a teenager, with no prior record.

His word against ours; or, if he's dead, our word against whatever interpretation of forensics the state makes.

The fewer potential vulnerabilities we leave ourselves, the better off we are.

Edit: Just in case anybody wanted to misinterpret that last line, I am emphatically NOT saying a live BG is a vulnerability. Shoot to stop; killing is incidental and not desirable.
 
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Here is a great article on the issue of DAO, not just trigger pull. Some police departments actually increase trigger pull because of the liability issues. The following paragraph really summarizes the issue well in a nutshell:

Guns are designed by engineers and lawyers. Just like cars. If a gun leaves their factory in an unsafe configuration, it is the company that will be held liable for any accidents, injuries, or deaths that result. If they market a gun that meets the industry standards for safety, for its intended use, and YOU alter it from this configuration in a way that undermines this standard, it is YOU that will be culpable for YOUR recklessness. After all, intentionally compromising the safety systems of any powerful device can only be described as reckless.
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http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0...houldnt-modify-his-self-defense-guns-trigger/

He goes on to show how the initial impression of a "good" shoot by the responding LEO can fall apart quite easily. Great little article.
 
Yes as I pointed out earlier many police departments did increase the strength of trigger pull weight. This process began well over 20 years ago and prior to the transition to semis. This was to avoid liability and due to a number of cases in which officers incorrectly and unintentionally shot people. The families sued and in many cases won due to the shootings being bad ones and as Ayoob admits, that was the heart of the matter with trigger pull weight being secondary.

If a person chooses to carry a dao gun that is up to them and another layer of safety that may be advisable. But it in no way is mandatory. Familiarity with the gun is required.

As more individuals choose to CCW the number of untrained or partially trained individuals has increased. The advice of trainers to move to dao guns has increased as a result. Not bad advice but it tends to emphasize the hardware over good gun handling and as we can see in this thread can lead some to substitute the one for the lack of the other. Or to lead some to think that a dao gun will excuse a poor shooting.

No one should think that if you are involved in a shooting that the cops will let you off the hook. Assume the worst, no matter how justified the situation, you will be better prepared then.

tipoc
 
Bottom line is if I accidentally shoot someone, I am liable. If I shoot someone justifiably, more than likely I will be ok legally. Trigger will be a factor only in the very rarest of occassions and it can be sucessfully defended at a price if it does happen. I think it wiser to select a firearm that best allows you to survive the event. If thats a DAO so be it. If thats a 1911 with a 3 pound sweet heart trigger then oh well.
 
Would a 8 pd trigger pull have prevented this?
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Most probably, in most cases. If a person has such a lack of mechanical skills they can't tell the difference between a still trigger and one engaging with a long, slow and hard pull, they should not be carrying a gun in the first place.


No one should think that if you are involved in a shooting that the cops will let you off the hook.
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The cops deemed it a justifiable homicide in the case of Harold Fish. Then the DA and local politics went to work against him. Those are the people I fear.
 
Dear Secret Agent Man,

Yes, the DA is the person that is most to fear in a shooting incident precisely. My CCW instructor is a cop as well and he simply stated, the cop is NOT your friend in a shooting incident. Perhaps not your enemy, but they are not your friend and will objectively record your actions, your demeanor and any statements that you make. The less you state the better. Save that for a time when the adrenalin has run off and you have your attorney beside you.

I prefer the DAO for the safety factor since I pocket carry almost exclusively anymore. It is just so easy to throw it in the pocket and conceal it that way. It gives me more choices for clothes including tucked in dress shirts and pants with my Ruger SP101 in pocket carry. I choice the .357 as one of the most reliable rounds should I need that protection. I like the extra weight of this gun over the scandium lightweight models and it shoots well and is rugged. So, the DAO is by choice and I don't have problems using it. At 7 yards, I can group my shots well enough to be effective and that is the 21 foot limit that is often used as the criteria.

So, personal choice is at the heart of the ease of use issue, but the legal issue is still present and has Ayoob pointed out so many tiimes over, the courts have already looked askance at less than manufacture trigger pulls. If folks want to go there, just be forewarned it could be an issue if you ever have to use that gun in self defense.

Bottom line on my part, I understand well the physiology of a fight or flight adrenalin response and that fine motor skills suffer greatly during that type of event. Finger control is a huge issue and one more reason that I want the DAO with a higher trigger pull. A negligent discharge and death or serious injury is a crime, while a deliberate shooting during the course of an event where the elements of a life and death shooting are in place is completely different. As Ayoob pointed out, a DAO trigger in the Frank Magliato was the only reason he ended up convicted of a crime instead of a successful self defense case.

That is enough for me to stick with DAO as have many professional police and security departments. What more evidence is needed?
 
That is enough for me to stick with DAO as have many professional police and security departments. What more evidence is needed?
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Nothing more is needed. You have made your decision based on the facts available. I agree that you are correct in that there is a risk however I simply disagree on allowing that amount of risk dictate the firearm I defend myself with. I your case the revolver works for you and covers you against this risk. For me its the Glock platform that affords me the best overall performance. Not going to go over well if I pull a fish but thats an informed risk I am willing to take.
 
My little 10 man department just went the opposite direction; 7.5 lb Glocks down to 5.5 ones. The troops shoot better with them. If they shoot better, they are less likely to shoot somebody they're NOT shooting at.

Liability, like ice cream, comes in different flavors.
 
This goes back to my argument that you need to be prepared to defend whatever you may choose to carry.

"I went to this trigger because it lets me hit targets much more precisely, and yet still has enough resistance and travel that I don't feel it will go off unless I deliberately pull it."

"This trigger, at this weight, in this model of weapon is issued by the following LE agencies..."

"This ammunition is used by the following LE agencies..."

"I trained to use this stopping drill because that is what ..... teaches."

Just by being aware that these are possible lines of attack, you can pre-determine the necessary defense.
 
DAO may be a little easier to defend in a tort then say a single stage trigger. Among the many theories they may use against your use of force, in regards to you weapon and ammo selection, would be the caliber, bullet type, firearm selection to include trigger pull and safeties. This would all probably used to either accuse you of a bad shoot and unintentional discharge or that you used too much force and you had a predetermined mindset to actually kill someone, (you would be berated on the stand on shoot to stop vs shoot to kill.) As much as a three year or more civil case sucks and drains the very life out of you, it won't kill you. You will be alive to endure the pain and money woes and probably have time to enjoy other parts of your life until your home owner's insurance settles or you prevail in front of a jury. Beats dying on the street corner, but just barely!
 
Firearm training-skill building, Ayoob, NYPD, budgets....

I read over a few member posts and it's seemed to go far afield from the DA only topic question, but I'll address some of the recent remarks;
The question of LE or armed security training/marksmanship is now fast starting to be a budget & civil action/insurance issue.
I read a item about how the 35,000 sworn LE officers in the NYPD now only have 1 sidearm qual a year!
My county sheriff & the county atty had a recent high profile civil case where several armed, uniformed & plainclothes LE personnel fired over 109 rounds at a subject's vehicle & occupants. The sworn deputies used Bushmaster M4s & Glock 21/30 .45acp pistols(standard or factory trigger). The sheriff told the local media he & the county decided to settle out of court even though the deputies were cleared by the formal use of force investigation.
Many armed and/or private citizens lack the "deep pockets" of a government LE agency or large corporation(PSCs/armed professionals). They may also not have the legal resources or insurance to fight a long drawn out criminal-civil trial(court action). Look at what Harold Fish & his family had to endure.
For duty or concealed carry, I'd rather have a LE type sidearm(I've owned 3 in the past, 2 96D .40s & a Ruger GPNY) or a high quality DA only pistol(PX4 C format, HK P2000/lem, S&W SD9 or SD40, SIG P226R DAK, etc.
 
The cops deemed it a justifiable homicide in the case of Harold Fish. Then the DA and local politics went to work against him. Those are the people I fear.
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There is not much to learn from the Fish case that relates to this topic if you understand Fish's mistake.

The DA is a "cop" in the sense that he, like the fella in the black nightgown that sits behind the big desk, the guard in a prison, etc. is a component of the "justice system". You forget this at your peril.

tipoc
 
Suppose the comments about police not picking "sides" is true. They are there to enforce the laws, not to pat you on the back for stopping the threat on your life.

DAO sounds like the way to go though. But then again, if you know there's going to be a threat, I'd prefer a 12 gauge or better yet, to be there at a different time or be in a different place.
 
A very informative discussion guys. I do have a little concern with the idea that a good shoot will never go beyond administrative review. There are prosecutors out there just looking for a chance to make a name for themselves, and who would love to make an example of some gun toting "cowboy". There are where I live anyway. If I am put in a position where deadly force is the only resort to protect myself or others I will use it, fully expecting to have to answer to a jury of my peers. My 9mm DAO pistol and HP ammo were selected with that in mind. I do not like the thought of possibly having to defend my actions in court, but I like the alternative less.
 
Was at one time the best defenseable revolver.
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A good defensive revolver, maybe, a belly gun as they are known. But "defensable" as meant in the context of this thread? That is questionable.

tipoc
 
Suppose the next question would be...what caliber would be most defensible?

I would think "typical police calibers" would be best defended, 9mm and 40. Maybe 45?

Would it be defensible to use .50 AE or .500 S&W?

THEN, the next question would be bullet type!

Whatever has "safety or protection" written on the box?
 
checkmyswag said:
Suppose the next question would be...what caliber would be most defensible?

I would think "typical police calibers" would be best defended, 9mm and 40. Maybe 45?

Would it be defensible to use .50 AE or .500 S&W?

THEN, the next question would be bullet type!

Whatever has "safety or protection" written on the box?
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I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that Mr. Ayoob also recommends using the pistol and chambering that your local police use. If not their duty weapon, then their off duty/BUG.

He argues that this practice will be very defensible in court. Also when LEOs arrive on scene, you won't be holding a weapon that they usually only see bad guys with.
 
I read the Mas Ayoob post linked to. Very interesting.

Wow! Found the document for my local police force describing which guns they are allowed to carry and which ammunition. Glocks/HK/S&W's, no 1911's.

Think a person would be OK, so long as the weapon were of similar design/operation.

That makes a ton of sense, this argument to carry what the cops carry. Although I would argue the type/action of pistol is more important than the brand/model.
 
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