DA/SA help.

I prefer a long and heavy DA on the first pull for the safety factor (like a revolver), keeping the pistol in ready-to-fire condition without a manual safety. The DA also provides the advantage of double-strike capability over an SA. The only downside is the first shot may be less accurate, and the change over from DA to SA after the first round can slow recovery.

With practice you can reduce the disadvantages of first shot accuracy and recovery to acceptable levels, especially with my CZ 75BD in half-cock position. Besides, if you have just half a second to spare, just cock the hammer and voilà, you have an SA pistol.

TomNJVA
 
Slightly strange thread that has seemed to get out of hand a bit. If you can shoot you can shoot. Most seem to get caught up in which flat form is best they are all great if you put in the time just shooting. At a contact distance if you have practiced it doesn't matter much which trigger your pistol has, so many people think "which" trigger you have is important. Just shoot as much as your budget allows and you will be fine.
 
I'm back!
Sorry I took so long to show up. Life got in the way.:(

Now, first, I gotta say something: because of what I am (hyper-kinetic in the worst way, and curious about pretty much everything), I'm a veteran of probably more than 20 different forums, from mechanics, software, etc, to soapmaking, beer brewing, you name it. Of course, some of them were very nice, helpful forums, and some were... not.
However, even in the best of them, you could come to expect, at best, 15, maybe 20 replies to a thread, before it lost momentum, but 62...! You guys are truly incredible!

Now, I must apologize to you all.
Believe it or not, when I started this thread, I spent a long time reading everything over and over, to make sure I didn't forget to post any important data. And, of course, I did.
First, I forgot a tiny detail: yes, I was talking about hammer fired guns. Sorry...
And second, I forgot to state my intentions: I'm not trying to decide which gun to buy next. You wouldn't believe how many guns are already waiting in line to come join my collection.
The reason I made those questions is because I've been designing a handgun for some time, and one of the things that always bugged me about DA/SA guns is the differences in travel and trigger pull between both firing modes.
Now, a couple of months ago, I got an idea for a new system that should provide a DA mode that's very close in both trigger travel and pull to the SA mode, if not equal (meaning a very light, very short DA, not a long, heavy SA).
Of course, I haven't made a prototype yet (and I'm not an engineer, so I can't calculate the thing), but, since manufacturing one (or several) of them, is a ton of work, I wanted to know what you guys thought in terms of it being a good thing, or not.

So, thank you all for the replies. Even those that went the striker fired way, have posted a ton of great info. Thanks.:)

In any case, if you have anything to add, please do. Even if I don't reply to a thread, I'm always on top of it on my cellphone. I just can't bring myself to type on that tiny POS...:rolleyes:
 
Now, a couple of months ago, I got an idea for a new system that should provide a DA mode that's very close in both trigger travel and pull to the SA mode, if not equal (meaning a very light, very short DA, not a long, heavy SA).
Click to expand...

For many of us, what you propose would defeat the purpose for having a classic DA pistol; long trigger pull (DA) for the first shot, all subsequent shots being short (SA) trigger pulls. That's the configuration we want so as to be able to carry the pistol safely, even if it lacks a safety (like many SIG pistols, for instance).

It would seem that if you had a pistol that fired DA with a "very light, very short" trigger pull, you'd need a safety to carry it safely. And if that's the case, there are plenty of SA pistols out there that have safeties to prevent a light trigger pull to be inadvertently depressed (the 1911 comes to mind).

What you have in mind seems to me to already exist in the form of many striker-fired pistols (ala Glock), even though you want the same basic operation with a pistol having a hammer. Sorry, I'm just not getting it. I can be dense at times. :o
 
I have to agree with dgludwig. I wouldn't get the point of what you're suggesting. At that point use one of any number of systems out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well, that's the reason for this thread.
All of you have a lot more experience than me with guns. For me, this is just an exercise in mechanics. What I want to know is if it would make sense or not, from a user's perspective, or to which point it would make sense (let's say, just as an example, that a DA that is 30%, or 40% heavier and/or longer than the SA would be a better compromise between safety and ease of use?).
My point is I think I can manage the DA's travel and pull at will. So,I keep reading this or that DA/SA gun's reviews, and most cite the "long and heavy DA" as a bad thing. What would be a "good" DA to SA pull/travel ratio?
 
So,I keep reading this or that DA/SA gun's reviews, and most cite the "long and heavy DA" as a bad thing. What would be a "good" DA to SA pull/travel ratio?
Click to expand...

The transition required between the long, first shot DA trigger pull to the short SA trigger pulls for all subsequent shots (the "classic" DA configuration) has always been a bone of contention for those who don't like the system. They argue that it takes too much practice and training to become proficient with the necessary trigger pull changes.

For others, self included, the long first shot trigger pull (so long as it is relatively smooth and not too heavy) is beneficial in a pistol being carried for self-defense purposes. As noted earlier, the long pull needed for the first shot makes a semi-auto pistol similar to a DA revolver in terms of carrying it safely.

Furthermore, in my experience, it simply is not that hard to learn to shoot proficiently with a classic DA pistol. I think the supposed difficulty has been way overrated.

Finally, it seems to me that every conceivable type of action that is practical to use in a semi-auto pistol (SA, DA, DAO and combinations of same; be they striker or hammer-fired) is already available on the market. I simply don't see a niche in the market for the type of action you seem to be advocating. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say.
 
I also agree with dgludwig. I consider the heavy DA trigger pull a feature. And it's a feature that doesn't have to be utilized if one chooses not to, but it's a feature that I appreciate. A DA/SA action offers choices.
 
I like to think I'm always learning too, BOOGIE. I'm not trying to be critical of your idea; it's an interesting concept and I'm glad you asked about it. I'm just trying to fill in some gaps.
 
We don't have to debate this. Look at the shelves at your local gun store. As the military goes 320, I expect the da/sa to be off the shelves completely within 5-10 years.
Click to expand...
They also tend to cost less, making the purchase, especially for the first time buyer more attractive, a quality gun and be bought without a lot of $. They are popular, especially with the younger generation. Personally, I don't like them and prefer the da/sa or the sa although I do not think I have ever shot a pistol in da but that comes from being old and learning sa first. If da/sa disappear from the shelves I imagine they will still be kept under the counter for us older folks.:D


Then again better buy a couple more just in case.
 
Regardless of trigger you choose the biggest safety factor is you and training you put in. Not just training but quality training. However the trigger weight and pull is an important part of safety for a service weapon. I stress training but most of us do not train under stress with the adrenaline flowing which will make a light trigger dangerous.

I like the DA/SA platform for service weapons but mainly because that has what i have been shooting for 30 years and no desire to learn a new platform. My sigs have a DA with a 10 lb pull. Yes that is a long heavy pull but you dont accidentally discharge that weapon. The SA has about a 4 lb pull with a short reset and allows fast and presision followup shots.

For a service weapon i would prefer a 5-6 lb trigger pull. I dont like long trigger pulls. If you get a trigger that is smooth with a crisp break you will find it easy to shoot accurately. For me a long rough trigger has more impact on accuracy than the trigger weight.

I like the idea of double strike but not important to me. I train to "tap and rack" on failures. I did read an article that claimed that 80% of misfires would fire if struck again. Nice idea but im old and set in my ways with no plans of changing 30 years of training.
 
I expect the da/sa to be off the shelves completely within 5-10 years.
Click to expand...

So I guess Springfield is going in the opposite direction with their all new for 2017 DA/SA XDE hammer fired subcompact??

Dang, that is the first ever Springfield XD that I have ever liked! I would even get on of those, but unfortunately, they never will be for sale in CA!
 
As has been said, a DA/SA pistol in which the length and weight of the DA and SA trigger pulls is the same is not only impossible, it would make no sense.

If you want a hammer-fired pistol with a consistent trigger pull length and weight, design or buy a double action only pistol.

The DA trigger pull of most DA/SA pistols can be made lighter (but not shorter) by reducing the power of the mainspring. Most DA/SA pistols are somewhat over-sprung with regard to their hammer springs. This is done to ensure against light primer strikes.

Reducing the hammer spring weight will have little effect on the SA trigger pull weight so the weight of the DA and SA trigger pulls gets closer together. But the DA trigger pull is still going to start much farther forward and be much longer. Many DA/SA pistols also release the hammer at slightly different places in the trigger pull.

If you want a double action pistol that has a trigger pull weight lighter than what can be achieved with a reduced power mainspring without getting light primer strikes, then look at an "assisted" DAO trigger action like some of Heckler and Kochs LEM triggers.

There are lots of fans of DA/SA pistols. As long as people buy them, manufacturers like Beretta, CZ, Heckler and Koch, SIG Sauer, and FNH will continue to make them. They aren't going to disappear.
 
1. The heavier DA pull was designed this way for the specific purpose
of being heavier than the SA followup. Otherwise, why not just have
a SA?
2. See answer #1
3. My opinion, at least 3/4 inch(@20mm) and at least 8 lb.(@3.5 Kilos).
4. By "double strike capability" I am thinking you are meaning SA follow up
shots? Well that's pretty much the whole point of the DA/SA design, see?
The DA provides a safety, where you can get that shot off quickly, if need be.
Bear in mind that with a hammer-fired DA, if you have the time, you would always
want to draw the hammer, and give yourself the accuracy advantage of the lighter SA
trigger pull.
 
I have used DA/SA revolvers almost exclusively for the last 45-6 years. When I got my CZ75B it was the perfect auto for me. The grip felt comfortable and the double action pull felt like a dream. It was very smooth and lighter than I am used to. I have had no trouble with adapting to the semi auto pistol at all. I carry it with a chambered round and the hammer down. That is the same way I have carried my revolvers.
 
As has been said, a DA/SA pistol in which the length and weight of the DA and SA trigger pulls is the same is not only impossible, it would make no sense.
Click to expand...

I might argue that could be said for the DA/SA concept in general.

This is why it made sense.

In the day, nearly 100% of LEO were using 6 shot DA revolvers. Criminals were organizing at the street level. Then later, TEC 9's & mac 10/11 were getting on the streets. So, police were asking for capacity.

Capacity meant 9mm semi auto in those days. Great, but ALL leo are carrying DA revolvers. How can I convert them without training? I need a manual safetyless first shot....tada....DA/SA pistols 15 rounds of 9mm.

Then we start mag dumps at crime scenes. No need to aim, just send 3 rounds mentality started. The first DA shot nobody cared about until we found out NOBODY could put 1 DA and 1 SA round in a target. After hours of training I realize this skill can be mastered, but why spend all that effort.

Then came DAO, but while better never stamped out DA. Then came striker...it has stamped out DA/SA...Sig has moved on somewhat...military changed....writing is on the wall for DA/SA. CZ 75's becoming more popular in SAO!

In short, it was a guess at how to market semiauto at police forces so the training cost would be considered low. The real changeover to spray n pray didn't happen until after the guns were all bought. Then, they had to retrain and we start this new idea of every round counts.


I would put my effort into a thumb safety SAO with an improved combat trigger that is drop proof.
 
As has been argued ad infinitum, the "classic" DA format (SA/DA) "makes sense" for some of us because a semi-auto pistol can be carried with a round in the chamber in the DA configuration (with or without having a safety) having less chance of discharging it inadvertently and be able to access all the remaining rounds in the magazine in the SA mode. No other system offers these assets (with the understanding, again, as has been conceded, that some feel said "advantages" are really disadvantages :confused:).

But it is an often repeated myth that high capacity magazines, especially those in DA/SA pistols, promote or even cause a "spray and pray" mentality. As a veteran of thirty years in le, it is my considered opinion that lobbing lead downrange mindlessly is merely a matter of bad training and has nothing to do with how many rounds are on board, be they 2 or 22. Every round counts every time the trigger is pulled. Period.
 
Last edited:
Trends change.

The current trend is for striker fired pistols, but DA/SA are still selling just fine as are revolvers, single shot and AR pistols.

You've already heard some pro's and cons for da/sa so I won't rehash them but will just say that the DA to SA transition is no big deal once you train into the platform which you will have to do with ANY platform you choose including striker fired.

The Earnest Langdon videos helped me a lot and I agree and believe the DA/SA platform requires you to be a better shooter as it won't cover up a lack of fundamental skills like a striker fired gun will.

That is why the military wants them. ( The striker fired that is )
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top