DA/SA help.
- Thread starter BOOGIE the oily
- Start date
Well, I read through the technical discussion about what parts do which and what to call them. Interesting, but I find my self asking, why it freakin' matters????
What I mean is, when it comes to shooting the gun, what matters is how the trigger works the way it does, not why the trigger works the way it does.
What the shooter feels when pulling the trigger is what matters, not how many parts, in what order and degree are activated by pulling the trigger.
it's not something most beginning shooters can relate to. They don't know, don't understand, and in many cases don't care about it. What they care about is what they can relate to, which is what the trigger feels like when being pulled.
SA,DA,SAO(?? why add "only" when SA means it does only one thing, to begin with?? dept of redundancy dept ???), DAO, DAK, ABC, and XYZ, or what ever letter group you pick, with all the differences in designs, it gets confusing.
Why not just name the pistol(s) being discussed? Particularly when the pistol under discussion doesn't seem to fall easily in any one traditional definition.
Perhaps they are phasing it out because they finally realized what a poor choice of name they picked for it. For me, and many of us DAK only means one thing...
Deutches Afrika Korp
When I heard SigSauer was marketing a DAK pistol, I expected it to have a palm tree with a swastika embossed on the grips!!!
I was rather disappointed...
This thread reminded me of a few other things, as well...
Jeff Cooper once said that the double action semiautomatic was an ingenious solution to a problem that didn't exist.
Mas Ayoob felt that a DA/SA pistol (Sig P220) was a superior police gun than an SA pistol (1911A1). And I can find no fault in his reasoning, which was, essentially, a soldier sees the enemy, and then shoots them. The SA semi auto (1911A1) works really well for this.
The POLICE officer often has to hold a suspect at gun point, under threat, but without shooting them. And, no matter how well you train your officers, Someone IS going to put their finger ON the trigger in that situation, and therefore, the long, heavy DA trigger pull is an additional safety feature, because it makes an accidental shot less likely.
This thread also reminded me that I am not a police officer, and my military days are decades behind me. SO, therefore, what is important to military and/or police use isn't all that important to me, because I'm not them, and I have different priorities.
I have several hammer fired SA semi autos. I have a couple of DA/SA hammer fired semi autos (P.38 and Sig P220). My striker fired pistols are P.08 Lugers. I've shot GLocks and others with different kinds of "DAO" triggers.
My personal opinion is that if you are going to die in a gunfight because of the all the extra time it takes to pull a longer heavier DA trigger, then you are going to die in a gunfight, no matter what kind of trigger you have.
What I mean is, when it comes to shooting the gun, what matters is how the trigger works the way it does, not why the trigger works the way it does.
What the shooter feels when pulling the trigger is what matters, not how many parts, in what order and degree are activated by pulling the trigger.
it's not something most beginning shooters can relate to. They don't know, don't understand, and in many cases don't care about it. What they care about is what they can relate to, which is what the trigger feels like when being pulled.
SA,DA,SAO(?? why add "only" when SA means it does only one thing, to begin with?? dept of redundancy dept ???), DAO, DAK, ABC, and XYZ, or what ever letter group you pick, with all the differences in designs, it gets confusing.
Why not just name the pistol(s) being discussed? Particularly when the pistol under discussion doesn't seem to fall easily in any one traditional definition.
Perhaps they are phasing it out because they finally realized what a poor choice of name they picked for it. For me, and many of us DAK only means one thing...
Deutches Afrika Korp
When I heard SigSauer was marketing a DAK pistol, I expected it to have a palm tree with a swastika embossed on the grips!!!
I was rather disappointed...
This thread reminded me of a few other things, as well...
Jeff Cooper once said that the double action semiautomatic was an ingenious solution to a problem that didn't exist.
Mas Ayoob felt that a DA/SA pistol (Sig P220) was a superior police gun than an SA pistol (1911A1). And I can find no fault in his reasoning, which was, essentially, a soldier sees the enemy, and then shoots them. The SA semi auto (1911A1) works really well for this.
The POLICE officer often has to hold a suspect at gun point, under threat, but without shooting them. And, no matter how well you train your officers, Someone IS going to put their finger ON the trigger in that situation, and therefore, the long, heavy DA trigger pull is an additional safety feature, because it makes an accidental shot less likely.
This thread also reminded me that I am not a police officer, and my military days are decades behind me. SO, therefore, what is important to military and/or police use isn't all that important to me, because I'm not them, and I have different priorities.
I have several hammer fired SA semi autos. I have a couple of DA/SA hammer fired semi autos (P.38 and Sig P220). My striker fired pistols are P.08 Lugers. I've shot GLocks and others with different kinds of "DAO" triggers.
My personal opinion is that if you are going to die in a gunfight because of the all the extra time it takes to pull a longer heavier DA trigger, then you are going to die in a gunfight, no matter what kind of trigger you have.
Well now, you can't really blame Mr. Kellerman for his last name.
Everyone knows Jeff Cooper hated DA/SA pistols and called them "crunchentickers". Hickok 45 feels pretty much the same.
Of course a lot of people do call guns like cowboy revolvers and model 1911s "single action" instead of "single action only". I think some people add the "only" simply to differentiate this type of trigger action from the single action mode of firing a double action revolver, or DA/SA pistol.
Here is another guy's take on the different trigger actions:
http://patheyman.com/choosing-handgun-what-kind-trigger-action-updated/
Everyone knows Jeff Cooper hated DA/SA pistols and called them "crunchentickers". Hickok 45 feels pretty much the same.
Of course a lot of people do call guns like cowboy revolvers and model 1911s "single action" instead of "single action only". I think some people add the "only" simply to differentiate this type of trigger action from the single action mode of firing a double action revolver, or DA/SA pistol.
Here is another guy's take on the different trigger actions:
http://patheyman.com/choosing-handgun-what-kind-trigger-action-updated/
Jim Watson
New member
So he bought the gun his coach said not to.
What is a "closed hammer?" Autocorrect in the wrong direction after he misspelled "cocked" perhaps.
Or he could study under E. Langdon who says "Fear Not the Double Action Shot."
What is a "closed hammer?" Autocorrect in the wrong direction after he misspelled "cocked" perhaps.
Or he could study under E. Langdon who says "Fear Not the Double Action Shot."
Walt Sherrill
New member
44 AMP said:
If you have a round that doesn't go bang and you're in a life-and-death situation, you can always rack the slide... but at the range you MIGHT choose to just pull the trigger a second time if the action allows it.
44 AMP said:
If the beginner is shopping for a first or new handgun, he or she might want to KNOW and understand the difference before the purchase.
44 AMP said:
Because they don't make DAO/SA or DA/SAO guns, but they do make DAO, SAO, and DA/SA and SAO guns? (We both know that nobody calls a SA as SAO gun, but we do see DAO guns identified by that longer acronym.)
How the trigger pull changes from the first and second shots is different between true SA guns and DA/SA guns. A beginning shooter might not understand the differences, at first.
44 AMP said:
Good point, but again, we don't seem to have a common way of naming or explaining the differences between some of the striker- and hammer-fired guns that require slide movement before the gun will fire. Some "beginning shooters" (and even folks who have been shooting for a while but who have experience with only one action type might want to know the functional differences if they're looking to buy a new handgun.
Last edited:
scoobysnacker
New member
Sort of on-subject question here...
The old Savage 1907 pistol is a striker-fired pistol, with a hammer-like "cocked" indicator. When you rack the slide, it looks for all the world like a hammer is cocked. Based on my understanding of the setup, the "hammer" is merely an indication that the striker is cocked, and doesn't actually impart any force to the firing pin, just moves in conjunction with it.
When dry-firing, it seems possible to lower the hammer down, or "decock". You hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, and gently lower the hammer.
Would this be possible with the 1907, to decock? I haven't actually tested it, because if the striker were to still fire, I would have my thumb directly behind the slide when the gun fired, something I don't want to do
. Even with "just" a .32 acp, that would bang the heck out of my thumb.Jim Watson
New member
I think if you decock the Savage it will rest the striker on the primer.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
scoobysnacker
New member
ok thanks.
I understand it would not be a safe way to carry, was actually curious if it would physically control the striker, and prevent immediate discharge... or if the striker would still fire.
marine6680
New member
How and Why are inextricably linked... They dictate each other.
You can ignore the mechanics and get by... But I believe that to be a truly good shooter, one needs to have at least some knowledge of the mechanics.
And while someone fairly ignorant of how a gun works, can use it, and a new shooter, with limited knowledge, can pick a gun at the store and do fine...
To be an informed owner and purchaser, knowing how something works, or at least understand the differences in functionality between models, on at least a rudimentary level, is important.
I won't disagree, but discussion of whether the striker is cocked, or only partially cocked, and similar technical minutiae is beyond a rudimentary level.
Millions of drivers can't tell you how a fuel injection system works, or how it's different from a carburetor. and, they don't need to, in order to drive their car.
It makes no difference to them what the valve body in their automatic transmission does, or how it does it. All they need to know is they put the lever in "D", the car goes forward. Put it in park, and the "safety" is on...(kind of)
Discussions about what term is properly applied to which system because of which parts do what, when, is a technical matter. And that's FINE. But it doesn't help a beginner much, if at all, and may only confuse them.
Walt Sherrill
New member
44 AMP said:
If you're saying that we're getting caught up in trivia, I'd probably agree to a point. BUT why this focus on beginners?
Many of the folks involved in this discussion are NOT beginners, and darned few of them seem to agree and a few seem to be unfamiliar with the details being discussed. If the topic isn't addressed HERE, where would a beginner find it explained in a useful manner? And how would some of the non-beginners learn the differences?
Why the focus on beginners???
because of the OP
Simply put, the page plus of detailed discussion of various systems internal workings doesn't address the OP's questions, and is what he specially asked us NOT to discuss.
In what is probably another bad analogy, if someone asks the pros & cons of 2 wheel drive, vs. 4 wheel drive, explaining how Ford routes torque through the transfer case one way, and GM does it a different way, does NOT answer the question.
Some of the posters tried, several did not.
Including those who aren't ...beginners...
because of the OP
Simply put, the page plus of detailed discussion of various systems internal workings doesn't address the OP's questions, and is what he specially asked us NOT to discuss.
In what is probably another bad analogy, if someone asks the pros & cons of 2 wheel drive, vs. 4 wheel drive, explaining how Ford routes torque through the transfer case one way, and GM does it a different way, does NOT answer the question.
Some of the posters tried, several did not.
Including those who aren't ...beginners...
Walt Sherrill
New member
I see.
Had you said, "the OP asked about DA/SA pros and cons, and not how they worked," I would have agreed that we had gone far afield -- then your more recent comments would have made perfect sense to me.
When you said BEGINNERS and didn't specifically cite the OP's question, it seemed you were diverging, just like the rest of us. This discussion certainly addressed more than the PROs and CONs of DA/SA guns.
ME? I not all that enthusiastic about DA/SA guns -- the extra time it takes to become proficient (and some folks never do) seems like a waste of time and ammo.
That said, I own most of the action types we mentioned, except the Walther P99/SW99 which is a true striker-fired DA/SA design. The guns I count on (carry or home defense) are either SA (cocked & locked) or striker-fired with a partially tensioned striker spring -- I like the trigger pulls to be the same with each shot.
I'd argue that a beginner is probably not well-served by starting with a DA/SA gun.
.
Had you said, "the OP asked about DA/SA pros and cons, and not how they worked," I would have agreed that we had gone far afield -- then your more recent comments would have made perfect sense to me.
When you said BEGINNERS and didn't specifically cite the OP's question, it seemed you were diverging, just like the rest of us. This discussion certainly addressed more than the PROs and CONs of DA/SA guns.
ME? I not all that enthusiastic about DA/SA guns -- the extra time it takes to become proficient (and some folks never do) seems like a waste of time and ammo.
That said, I own most of the action types we mentioned, except the Walther P99/SW99 which is a true striker-fired DA/SA design. The guns I count on (carry or home defense) are either SA (cocked & locked) or striker-fired with a partially tensioned striker spring -- I like the trigger pulls to be the same with each shot.
I'd argue that a beginner is probably not well-served by starting with a DA/SA gun.
.
Last edited:
I would agree with that, particularly if it is understood that what is meant is that they are not as well served as they would be with a gun with a single, consistent operating system. (either SA or DAO)
The DA/SA learning curve is steep, to master both methods. I do own a few guns in that category, one is a Browning BDA 45 (Sig P220) that I bought new in 1980. Despite the two different trigger pulls, I do love the gun. And, I will admit to almost never shooting it DA.
Interestingly, after I had owned the gun for about a decade, and with NO work of any kind done on it, the DA pull weight seemed to be about half what it was when new. No, I never measured it then, and still haven't, I'm talking about the "feel" which could be entirely me, and probably is.
I have, a couple times in my life "discovered" abilities that I didn't think I had. I had a steel plate in my backyard range, that when in my 20s, I struggled mightily to hit shooting a DA revolver DA. If I managed half the cylinder on target, I was having a great day! Then, about the time I turned 30, all of a sudden, I was "ptinking" 6 for 6 slow fire. Where that came from, I never figured out, it just seemed that one day, I couldn't miss, and from that day on, I shot DA much better. I suppose one could say my practice paid off, but to me it seemed like magic, because, I never really practiced shooting DA very much, just something I did once in a while.
Another gun I have in the DA/SA group is my Mauser HSc. Unlike the Sig, it has a safety. And that safety puts it in what I think is the worst group of pistols for a "beginner".
Like a lot of the DA/SA service pistol designs, the ones with a safety or decocker/safety are the most complicated for new shooters to master. And even for some experienced people, as well.
To make the gun "ready" for carry, you put the safety ON to decock, then have to take the safety OFF so you can fire the gun DA at need. Forget to take the safety OFF before carry, and you got nothing when you pull the trigger.
Cooper, who was very ...conservative.. about what he liked and didn't, didn't like safeties on the slide (for one) and the DA/SA concept in general. Writing in his personal style that irritated so many people, he warned about the risks of a decocking safety saying "don't get caught with your dingus down".
While his manner of writing was considered abrasive and condescending by many, to date, I haven't found him to be totally wrong about a number of things.
I have another pistol that falls into the DA/SA group, and its a real oddball, doing it.
The Wildey.
Its a huge gas operated semi auto, mine is a .45 Win Mag. It has a DA/SA trigger set up, and oddly also a heel type magazine catch. It's way out of the "duty gun" class, and I have no idea why Wildey designed it that way.
I suppose the answer would be "because I could"...
Personally, I've never seriously trained shooting a DA/SA semi in DA mode. I guess I would be one of those people who "shot cock" their gun (if I ever needed to do it).
I think its great that people want to train and master the DA/SA, the way I never did. I'm sure that if it comes to a gunfight, they will be better off than I would be. I've managed to avoid a gunfight for 60 years, and I expect to be able to continue to do so for the 20 or so years I MIGHT have left, so I'm not overly concerned.
Walt Sherrill
New member
pblanc said:
The number on the store shelves may be greater, but the gun makers offering new models in that action type seems to be slowly declining. There are always a LOT of SIGs for sale in gun shops, but that's true of Glocks, too. I think DA/SA models will be around for a good while, yet, 'cause people change their "gun" thinking/habits less often than they change their underwear (if they even wear underwear).
CZ (will probably continue making DA/SA guns for a long time, while also offering striker-fired guns, along with DA/SA models that can start from cocked & locked), as will Tanfoglio. I suspect that SIG, and Beretta will continue to offer DA/SA models, too, and those four gun makers seem to be the major gun makers with a heavy focus on DA/SA. (The gun makers in Turkey can go off in almost any direction -- and do a pretty good job of it, too!)
What's being said here about DA/SA not going away is a lot like the early claims that polymer-framed guns would never displace metal-framed guns, and we know the direction that trend is moving...
Last edited:
I suspect that companies like Beretta, CZ, HK, FN and others will continue to manufacture DA/SA pistols as long as people continue to buy them.
I do suspect that there will be relatively few new DA/SA models brought to market, although I suspect there will be an occasional "copy" or modification of an existing DA/SA design that appears here and there such as the Arex Rex Zero-1.
What pistol makers bring to market is of course partly driven by what people want to buy. But it is also driven by what the makers want to sell. Striker-action pistols with molded polymer frames are easier to manufacture and can be sold at a higher profit margin.
I do suspect that there will be relatively few new DA/SA models brought to market, although I suspect there will be an occasional "copy" or modification of an existing DA/SA design that appears here and there such as the Arex Rex Zero-1.
What pistol makers bring to market is of course partly driven by what people want to buy. But it is also driven by what the makers want to sell. Striker-action pistols with molded polymer frames are easier to manufacture and can be sold at a higher profit margin.
I'd argue otherwise if the beginner plans on relying on a DA/SA pistol for self-defense as his/her action of choice. He/she should start with the action type they'll end up with-and the "traditional da" (another moniker to add to some peoples' state of confusion, I guess
) pistol is the type I have much preferred using for self-defense purposes for a very long time.Walt Sherrill
New member
pblanc said:
I agree, but I would note that two of CZ's latest handguns -- the P-07 and P-09 -- are hammer-fired polymer-framed guns, and the P-09 is getting a good name in competition venues. (I would note, too, that these guns offer the shooter DA/SA with the option of safety (and cocked & locked) or decocker.)
I have a P-07, which I like a lot, and it performs very much like my Sphinx SDP, which is a much more costly weapon. Of course the SDP model I have, has a combo-alloy/polymer frame, with most of the grip done in polymer. You can get an all-metal version, but I'd probably never bother going that route -- as the "hybrid" frame works pretty well.
The CZ P10c, which I'd like to try, seems to be gaining fans, too. There are a lot of CZ owners who will, I suspect, take the plunge.
I think polymer frames are here to stay and will eventually almost replace metal frames. It used to be that polymer frames flexed more than some shooters could stand and didn't perform well in Ransom Rest tests. Nowadays, many newer models, made differently and with frames made of subtly different variants of the basic Nylon 66 formula, now perform VERY WELL in those tests, with essentially the same sort of frame flex as metal-framed guns.
Then, too, many of the new modular designs using polymer frames, have an un-flexing metal sub-frame within the polymer (with frame rails as part of the sub-frame), that keeps all of the key components together properly aligned so that there is consistent lockup when the slide returns. The frame is just the handle, while the important parts of the gun (slide, frame, rails, fire control system, etc.) are just as un-flexing as in metal-framed guns.
Guns may be a lot like cars -- have become more and more "plastic" over the years. In many respects, these new, "more-plastic" cars are safer, faster and more economical than anyone would have thought possible, just 20 years ago.
.
Last edited: