CZ - A Love Hate Relationship

ferrarif1fan said:
Plus the PX4 uses a rotating barrel lockup, which is supposed to soften recoil. I just love mine. Ended up getting rid of the 92A1 because it was just such a big, bulky 9mm pistol. Haven't regretted it for a minute.
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I've done a little reading on this subject recently and don't understand how a rotating barrel can have much effect on recoil -- as recoil is primarily a function of the load used and the weight of the gun. (A lot of other things can certainly affect FELT recoil, however.)

One website I visited today, talkiing about the PX4, spoke about how the quickly unlocking-barrel makes for a quicker drop of pressure, etc., etc., etc., but I think all of the recoil has been passed to the frame by the time the barrel unlocks fully, and pressure quickly drops as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel (which it does when the slide has moved less than 1/10th of an inch.) Unlocking doesn't really get underway in most guns until the slide has traveled a bit farther.

If the gun has less felt recoil, it may be due to a better (more ergonomic) design, or a heavier frame.

On the other hand, I would THINK that the rotating barrel has the potential to be a more accurate mechanism, as it only moves forward and back, and NOT f/b and up and down like most of the tilting barrel Browning Locked-breech, short-recoil designs. Seems as though you could fit a barrel using the rotating mechanism precisely more easily (and less expensively) than a tiling barrel mechanism. Maybe?
 
I have a PCR, and I like to shoot it (I mean literally the bang-bang-bang part), but I don't necessarily like it ergonomically. To me, the narrow slide combined with a really stiff recoil spring makes it hard to rack. Once it's in battery, though ... rock on.
 
I went through 2 CZ's a .40 S&W 75B Tutone that looked great but never ran right. Then I had a 75B Compact that never ran right. Then the third time was the charm, a plain 75B 9mm that fed everything I loaded it with and it chews up a target. You can't find CZ 75B's out here because of the 15rd mag limit law that just won't go away!
 
JDBerg said:
You can't find CZ 75B's out here because of the 15rd mag limit law that just won't go away!
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Are there no dealers offering NEW CZs in your area? Dealers NOT carrying new CZsw has been a problem in a lot of places, but that has been improving. Otherwise, CZs are no different than other new guns in a state with 10-round mag limits.

Distributors and dealers CAN order new guns with 10-round mags rather than 15-rounders-- they've just got to be willing to do it.

If you're buying from a dealer on the 'net you can probably work out a mag swap.

Private sales (interstate through FFLs) may be a bit more complicated, as you might have to buy a gun without mags, and get the 10-rounders separately.
 
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Walt Sherrill: said:
Are there no dealers offering NEW CZs in your area?[\QUOTE]

The only CZ 75B I've seen since I got out here to CO Last year is my own. Since I came from PA and I originally bought it with 16rd mags, I had it legally shipped by an FFL out here to CO, it is legal to own & use but I can't legally sell it here with these mags.

Dealers NOT carrying new CZsw has been a problem in a lot of places, but that has been improving. Otherwise, CZs are no different than other new guns in a state with 10-round mag limits.[\QUOTE]

It has always been a problem that a lot of dealers don't stock CZ pistols, and I'll take your word for it that this situation is improving where you're at. Dealers don't stock a lot of Glock 17's and CZ 75B's with 10 round mags out here due to low demand and other good 9mm alternatives with 15 round mags

Distributors and dealers CAN order new guns with 10-round mags rather than 15-rounders-- they've just got to be willing to do it. [\QUOTE]

And that has been the problem, most dealers want to sell what they have & not what they have to special order. And I was told by a couple dealers that they don't want to order something that they might get stuck with in case I decide at the last minute I don't want the pistol

If you're buying from a dealer on the 'net you can probably work out a mag swap. Private sales (interstate through FFLs) may be a bit more complicated, as you might have to buy a gun without mags, and get the 10-rounders separately.
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Again, since the transaction has to go through an FFL on the receiving end here in CO, that FFL has to refuse a shipment with mags that are illegal in CO. And most dealers won't sell a semiauto without mags, so best bet might be a Buds deal for a 10 round box set & just use the 10 rounders at the range along with the mags I already have.
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Your end QUOTEs have the slash backwards, above. It should be [/ not [\

Sounds like you need to find a different local dealer (or dealers). You can also buy from the CZ Custom Shop and have them ship it to a local FFL. I'm sure they can get 10-round mags.

If you've got a 10-mag limit for ALL guns, having a new CZ on hand should be a big problem.

(That said, if I asked a dealer to order a gun for me, I'd be willing to pay up front and would take the gun unless there was something OBVIOUSLY wrong with it when it came. That's the same thing that would happen if you ordered from BUDS, etc. -- the wait just wouldn't likely be as long.)
 
JDBerg said:
The only CZ 75B I've seen since I got out here to CO Last year is my own. Since I came from PA and I originally bought it with 16rd mags, I had it legally shipped by an FFL out here to CO, it is legal to own & use but I can't legally sell it here with these mags.

Dealers NOT carrying new CZsw has been a problem in a lot of places, but that has been improving. Otherwise, CZs are no different than other new guns in a state with 10-round mag limits.

It has always been a problem that a lot of dealers don't stock CZ pistols, and I'll take your word for it that this situation is improving where you're at. Dealers don't stock a lot of Glock 17's and CZ 75B's with 10 round mags out here due to low demand and other good 9mm alternatives with 15 round mags

And that has been the problem, most dealers want to sell what they have & not what they have to special order. And I was told by a couple dealers that they don't want to order something that they might get stuck with in case I decide at the last minute I don't want the pistol

Again, since the transaction has to go through an FFL on the receiving end here in CO, that FFL has to refuse a shipment with mags that are illegal in CO. And most dealers won't sell a semiauto without mags, so best bet might be a Buds deal for a 10 round box set & just use the 10 rounders at the range along with the mags I already have.
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I moved from PA (suburban Philly) to the Denver burbs in 2002, well before the stupid 15 round mag limit. However, my CZ-75B had 15 round mags, and my PCR 14 round mags. I thought CZ and/or MecGar still sold 15 round mags. Why not order them with standard 15 round mags, and just have the FFL do the transfer. I used a guy in Centennial.

Also, when I moved I didn't ship my guns to an FFL, but just rented a minivan, and drove them myself. They're my guns after all. I've moved them myself three our four times.
 
I had failure to extract (double feed) issues with my 75BD (circa 2009) until I removed the extractor and cleaned/deburred the extractor channel. Problem gone. This area must be kept clean and bone dry. No grease, no oil.

My particular pistol seems to like oil. A lot of oil. Think 1911 levels of oil. It gets obstinate and has feeding issues when it wants more oil.
 
best bet might be a Buds deal for a 10 round box set & just use the 10 rounders at the range along with the mags I already have.
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Or you can order it with the 10 round mags, and buy 15 round mags and be good to go. While the standard mags on a CZ 75B are 16 rounders today, they used to be 15 round mags. There are still new 15 round mags to be found on the internet (though other than ProMags, they are getting harder to find), and used mags show up from time to time. So you can order your CZ with 10 round mags so it is legal in CO, and order your CO legal 15 round mags online.

Now, it sounds like from other things you said (you have 16 rounders from when you lived in PA and you were legally able to bring them into the state) that the law may be simply about buying and selling and not possession. That is how MD's mag limits work. We can't buy or sell any mags over 10 rounds, but we can own them and we can bring them into the state (so long as we don't buy or sell them within the state). Lots of people go to DE, PA or VA to buy standard capacity mags. Do you live near a border, or get back to PA, where you could buy the current 16 round mags? Even if that won't work, again, 15 was the original capacity of their standard mags and there are still some out there to be found.

If you don't want to deal with all of that, and you are interested in another CZ, the Compact (whether the P01, PCR, or the steel framed 75B Compact) holds 14 rounds which is within your CO limits. Have your dealer order that, or if they won't, buy one on the internet and do a transfer, and you won't have any issues getting mags whatsoever.
 
I'm going to check the LGS's out here for a deal on a CZ P-01 with 14 round mags, I might also consider an internet deal through a local FFP here. The fact that they are hard to get out here makes me want one more!
 
I'm a big fan of the CZ 75 based guns (P01, SP01, PCR). I can't say I've ever had problems with the guns going into battery or ejecting. My P01 is my most accurate gun. In order to challenge myself I shoot 4" steel plates at 22 yards, freehand. Not bragging, just saying that the gun is extremely capable.

Sorry to hear your experiences, but I'm not surprised really. The CZ trigger system is very "different feeling" than a lot of other brands. My wife, for example, hates my CZs, but loves the Walthers and FNs. Perhaps they don't work well for you either.

I think one of the mistakes we make here is that we think every gun should suit us personally, and can't figure out why it won't. We then blame the gun and poo poo it on forums. Not saying you're doing that, but it's done often. Some guns just work better in certain hands.
 
Chaim: said:
Lots of people go to DE, PA or VA to buy standard capacity mags. Do you live near a border, or get back to PA, where you could buy the current 16 round mags? Even if that won't work, again, 15 was the original capacity of their standard mags and there are still some out there to be found.
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People from CO can drive up to Cheyanne WY for pistol magazines, it's about 80 miles away so it's not a BD.
 
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I had a PCR for a few months and sold it. It fired fine, once racked, which I agree can be a pain. I like the feel of the grip and single action was okay, but with a creepy trigger.

So, why get rid of a reliable pistol? I couldn't stretch my index finger far enough to work the trigger in DA! It's a really long reach, and stiff. I looked into Cajun Gun Works parts and installing them myself but it looked like something I really didn't want to do... Having CGW do it for me was another option but one which would add hundreds of dollars ($300? $400, I can't recall) to the base price. At that point I'd have a CZ at a Sig price so I abandoned the effort and sold at a small loss. It's not a bad pistol but it's definitely not for me.
 
Jawyalker said:
I had a PCR for a few months and sold it. It fired fine, once racked, which I agree can be a pain. I like the feel of the grip and single action was okay, but with a creepy trigger.
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The creepy trigger would have improved pretty quickly. And a lighter recoil spring would have made racking the slide easier. After a while you no longer notice that the slide rides inside the frame.

Sounds like you would have liked a Compact, which allows cocked & locked starts, but that gun (which is steel, not alloy) is a bit heavier than the PCR.

Jawyalker said:
So, why get rid of a reliable pistol? I couldn't stretch my index finger far enough to work the trigger in DA! It's a really long reach, and stiff. I looked into Cajun Gun Works parts and installing them myself but it looked like something I really didn't want to do... Having CGW do it for me was another option but one which would add hundreds of dollars ($300? $400, I can't recall) to the base price. At that point I'd have a CZ at a Sig price so I abandoned the effort and sold at a small loss. It's not a bad pistol but it's definitely not for me.
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Most folks who have the decocker models don't complain about the a long double-action trigger, since the PCR and P-01 decock to and start from the half-cock notch. (Decocking to that point doesn't shorten the trigger pull to half as much, but it is a noticeably shorter and lighter trigger pull.)

The short-reset trigger parts aren't terribly expensive, but doing your own work on a decocker CZ is a bit harder than working on a "safety" model. And having the work done is costlier. I'll detail strip a safety-model CZ, but I've always avoided the decocker models.

Jaywalker said:
At that point I'd have a CZ at a Sig price so I abandoned the effort and sold at a small loss. It's not a bad pistol but it's definitely not for me.
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About the ONLY SIGs you can get that are close to the size and weight of the PCR is the 229 or M11A1, and that would likely run the $tab up to well over a $1000 -- without any improvements done.

While I like SIGs, I like CZs better. I have a GrayGuns-tuned P228 with the short reset trigger (and their carry package), and I'd probably trade it even for a Cajun Gun Works/CZ Custom Shop CZ tuned compact -- especially one that has the safety rather than decocker.
 
If it didn't fit you, it didn't fit you - that's why I've sold off guns that others absolutely love and I couldn't stand. Diversity is a wonderful thing, when it comes to firearm choices!
 
sigarms228 said:
Maybe you have not looked at gun prices lately but one can buy a new P229 for under $800. A P229 Legion will go for over $1000 but plenty are well under that.
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You may be right, but I've not found those guns for that price. I did find quite few NEW P229s on GunBroker earlier today with BuyNow prices over $1000; when I went to the "advanced" search and checked P229s that actually sold, almost none could be found -- probably because many of the asking prices were much higher than $800 (no bids!) I also found a bunch of NEW CZ PCRs with BuyNow prices around $550.

I've never seen a P229 or M11A1 in a gun shop for under $800 unless it was used.

You could buy a CZ PCR off GunBroker (or directly from Cajun Gun Works) and add $350 for custom work, and I think you'd have a gun comparable to a GrayGuns tuned SIG P228 or P229.

(I have a P228 tuned by Gray Guns, and it's a fine weapon. Bought new and upgraded with a good Carry Package (and maybe the short-reset option), it would cost $1200-$1500, today. I have also handled and shot both CZ Custom Shop and Cajun Gun Works tuned-CZ compacts, and they seem to offer similar refinement for $ hundreds less. But, of course, they're not SIGs. :) )

But, as armoredman said, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I understand that not everyone loves CZs. The long DA trigger pull (when starting from hammer down on the safety-equipped models) is very challenging for folks with shorter fingers.
 
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It wasn't just the trigger that I disliked on the PCR, even on half-cock, but that was the main reason.

Other reasons included poor positioning (for me) of levers would have necessitated changing my decades-old hold; shooting thumbs up threatened to activate the slide lock/release, but it was too far away for me to use my thumb to chamber a round from a new magazine.

I really also disliked the sights for three reasons. First, there wasn't enough light around the front sight to get a constant sight picture; second, the rear sights seemed to be angled to collect glare, and third, at the time the only replacements I could find for concealed carry were Meprolights, which would leave a gap in the space from which the factory's were removed. (Partly this was an appearance issue, but mostly the gap would be guaranteed to collect garbage.)

I found the slide-inside-the frame design more limiting than I expected. Instead of being able to grab the slide with whole hand during drills I needed to carefully use my thumb and first two fingers to rack the slide. Again, this wasn't a show-stopper, but it would have required me to change decades of practice actions. Using the sights as a grab point showed promise, though.

I did consider the Compact cocked and locked operation, but as it was steel it was actually heavier than my Browning Hi-Power and therefore had no advantage over it.

In theory I liked it and so bought the PCR, but in practice it just didn't work for me. After my previous post I went back through my notes and found my estimate of $400 to get the major shortcomings corrected - no smoothing or accurizing included in that estimate. It just wasn't for me, but I have no problems with people who don't need that kind of fix; it was certainly reliable and I fired it accurately enough.

ETA: I think Walt's idea of buying directly from CGW has great merit. Get him to do the work before delivery and save the shipping or the frustration of working on those parts yourself. I bought mine with a LE/Mil discount from the factory and don't know CGW offers that option.
 
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Jaywalker said:
Other reasons included poor positioning (for me) of levers would have necessitated changing my decades-old hold; shooting thumbs up threatened to activate the slide lock/release, but it was too far away for me to use my thumb to chamber a round from a new magazine.

I really also disliked the sights for three reasons. First, there wasn't enough light around the front sight to get a constant sight picture; second, the rear sights seemed to be angled to collect glare, and third, at the time the only replacements I could find for concealed carry were Meprolights, which would leave a gap in the space from which the factory's were removed. (Partly this was an appearance issue, but mostly the gap would be guaranteed to collect garbage.)
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Good reasons to be unhappy with the gun. Most factory sights leave me cold, and they end up being changed regardless of the maker. There are now quite a few other sight combinations available for CZs -- but the weird PCR sight (with an overhang in front of the rear dovetail) is more difficult to replace. (The original PCRs had part of the rib in front of the dovetail removed; I don't know if that is still the case. It left a blank spot on the top of the PCR slide if you changed the sights to one made differently.)

When I had a Compact, some years back, I found a Tanfoglio extended slide release that solved the problem of "reach" -- but I'm not sure that it would work in a PCR -- as that portion of the frame is different when you compare the decocker models to the safety-models. (I kept photos of the gun, but not the slide release.)

I've never really understood the reasoning behind a Novak-style sight; I know it's supposed to be less likely to snag, but the sloped front of the rear sight might make it easier to the gun back in the holster but it doesn't make it easier to withdraw it from the holster without snagging. I've always thought that sight design was more style than substance. (But maybe I'm missing something... won't be the first time.)

Jaywalker said:
I found the slide-inside-the frame design more limiting than I expected. Instead of being able to grab the slide with whole hand during drills I needed to carefully use my thumb and first two fingers to rack the slide. Again, this wasn't a show-stopper, but it would have required me to change decades of practice actions. Using the sights as a grab point showed promise, though.
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The best approach is probably the hand-over method, rather than pinching the rear of the slide (which seems, unless I misinterpreted, to be what you ended up doing.) With that approach, you just lay your hand on the top of the rear of the slide and let your hand press against the rear sight.

Jaywalker said:
I did consider the Compact cocked and locked operation, but as it was steel it was actually heavier than my Browning Hi-Power and therefore had no advantage over it.
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Agreed on that point. It's why I eventually traded my Compact away. I've never understood why CZ didn't offer an alloy-framed Compact (with safety). I think they offered one briefly, and now the P-01 Omega model has that option.

I don't understand why CZ doesn't offer a full-size alloy-framed model, for that matter. The 75B Omega with an alloy frame would be nice. If it works with the compact models it ought to be find with the full-size models. I suspect, however, that polymer frames are what we'll see on any new CZs. (I know they tried polymer with the RAMI and SP01 Phantom, and backed away. The RAMI polymer models had some frame issues (more cosmetic than functional), but I never heard of problems with the full-size Phatom.

None of this addresses the issues that made you go a different route.

.
 
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