You really don't get it, but I'm not surprised.
Look at the OP again:
This issue is responding to a chaotic situation. Deciding after the fact, when the details of the incident are known what could have been done is easy. What is tough is dealing with chaos while in its midst. And that is always the real consideration.
Ok well I'll give you that either I did not read the op and jumped in or I made it my own.
Obviously the thread was started with the Oregon incident in mind.. but if I take the scenario strictly as the op put forward then it's pretty simple.
Nothing.. you do nothing except deal with any threats directed at you.
If it's chaotic then you can not get a clear shot.. and I doubt even a clear view of the person with the gun.. unless you're standing very close in which case you probably already know they did not cause the blood.
Someone is bleeding, are they on the ground? sitting down? standing? cant they talk?
I didn't hear a shot so what ever caused it probably was not a gun anyway.
I can see bloody victim and potential gunmen but this place is "sardine can-like environment" crowded?
I don't know about you but I've been in crowds before and after you get about 3 deep it becomes almost impossible to see whats going on up ahead unless you're tall enough to see over the people in front of you.
The only thing you could do at that point is deal with threats in your vicinity.
You can't have a chaotic crowded space and still be able to see everything the op wants you to see to make a decision on how to act.
In situations like that your threat zone has to shrink to something manageable.
But lets say for the sake of argument I can clearly observe this CCW'er.. Like I said.. I heard no shot.. and where ever this blood is or came from happen before he drew his gun.. so I'd watch his body language. But I don't think he'd be my primary concern.
Tell you a mental exercise I sometimes do is a gunmen in walmart.
In Ohio (and this stat is probably out of date) last I read I think we have nearly 600k CHL holders here, adult population ratio breaks down to like 1:20
So that means there is a VERY good chance that im not the only one carrying in a large store like walmart at any given time.
A man comes in and starts shooting at random people, I ASSUME another GG w/ Gun is going to show up so I can't just go into "kill anything with a gun" mode.
I have to anticipate recognizing and maybe even working with strangers.
Are they taking cover behind displays? rifle or handgun?
What's their body language are they at a low ready? are they aiming it at people at random? Which direction are they facing?
The gun men is likely not taking cover, probably has a long gun, and most likely walking thru the place like they own it because they expect minimal resistance, it's a shooting gallery for them.
Good Guys are pretty much never going to have a longun, CHL's only cover handguns in this state and I have NEVER seen someone OC'ing a rifle outside of rallies.
The gunmen is likely moving from one end to the other clearing the store, or perhaps pacing the exits, innocent people, CHL holders included are probably facing the direction of the gunfire as they take cover, If they have not already found an exit.
At this point you're probably wondering walmart has to do with the OP, and it's simple, you need to recognize a threat.. just having a gun does not = bad guy.
Anti-Gunners use that sort of logic to try and combat CC laws saying one person will pull out a gun and then everyone else will and the place will turn into a blood bath.. I can't say that has never happen but I've never heard of it happening if it did.
So even the untrained masses seem to be able to control them selves enough to avoid this situation.. or maybe we just don't have enough carriers yet to fully test.
.. Then again Florida has well over a million I think so It seems like something should have popped up by now.
Anyway back to OP.
I can't shot thru this crowd of bodies.. and I would not even draw my gun until I had a clear shot, Pulling out a gun in a elbow to elbow chaotic crowd, good chance im gonna be subdued by 1 or 2 people (similar to the Gabrielle Gifford shooting) and the crowd is probably gonna win any physical struggle.
That's why we do force-on-force and simulator training and things like IDPA or USPSA competition -- to practice dealing with rapidly unfolding, dynamic situations under stress.
Forgive me for my ignorance, I don't shoot comp., But all the videos I've seen of people shooting things like IDPA it's either all targets, or perhaps hostage.. or targets clearly marked friendly.. But usually just all targets & cover.
How does that help you identify a friendly chl, off duty, or plain clothes cop?
Im not accusing, Im genuinely curious.
And again you completely miss the point. The law in every State allows intervention with lethal force in defense of another if that person could have used lethal force to defend himself. There's nothing complicated or obscure about the rule. It's simple and straightforward.
I thought so too, I guess we agree on something so why do you keep going back to that well when I already stated it?
The issue is how can you be certain that the person to whose aid you come would be justified in using lethal force to defend himself. Knowing that is the tricky part. If you're mistaken you might well be going to jail for a long time. You will also have come to the aid of a criminal and have shot an innocent person. No one is going to be giving you the key to the city for doing that.
Already acknowledged this as well.. are you my echo?
Of course you think that. But apparently you really don't understand much about how stress can affect perception and understanding. It's entirely possible that folks near the action would not know what was going on. And mistakes assessing chaotic, stressful situations do happen.
LOL Ok, I've seen enough street fights and other nasty things to know whats happening if I was near enough to actually see it unfold.
There is nothing wrong with my perception "stress" or not.
And it's been my experience that others have no problem with it either, Assuming they was close enough to have actually seen the situation unfold.
In Oregon the guy was loud and ranting.. I think he would have had most peoples attention already.. But I know I know we're not really talking about Oregon we're talking about the OP's scenario.
I will give it to you, in the op's scenario a person is just suddenly bleeding with no explicable reason.. but apparently im just close enough in this "sardine can-like environment" to see what's going on clearly but not actually close enough to do anything or even understand what Im seeing.
The far more likely scenario in a "sardine can-like environment" is I neither see the bloody person or the guy with the gun in which case I deal with threats in my vicinity and not half a car over from me which I can't get to, see, or deal with even if I wanted to.
Reminds me of a situation at red-white-boom here in Ohio couple years ago I was down at the bridge where they let the fireworks off (downtown Columbus)
I was near a vendor, suddenly the crowd started running like an impromptu 30 meter dash or something.
This was not a sardine can-like environment for me, It WAS down in the crowd but I had options.
Honestly I was thinking either gunmen or bomb.. or zombies
the way the crowd was running.
I just hung back and prepared to take cover behind the snack shack if needed.
Turns out it was just 2 guys fist fighting, Point is I was too far away to know what was going on and until the crowd parted I couldn't see a damn thing.
But they sure knew what was going on down there cause the crowd moved like a herd of buffalo, we're talking probably 50-60 people deep and about 4-5 lanes of road wide.