Who do you shoot? Can we tell that the guy with the knife isn't acting in self defense from three men who might have knives or other weapons we can't see from where we are? I have a significant amount of experience riding on trains and for the most part they're very noisy and depending on the time of day you're going to have a bunch of people standing on both ends of the car packed in like sardines. You might be aware of a disturbance but unless you're right on top of it good luck figuring out what it's about. Disturbances and oddballs shouting things are not uncommon.
If im too far away to hear whats going on, and Im too far away to see these hidden weapons they might have.. then I suppose maybe Im too far away to be taking a shot in the first place.
The only time I use deadly force is when I know for absolute sure what it's about. If you intervene with other people's fights you run the risk of making a bad mistake. When the knife comes at you things become a lot clearer.
Ah.. only time YOU use deadly force.. you sound like a man with experience.. Could you share some of your deadly force situations with us?
AH when it comes at you.. Ok that's fine I put my self in the shoes of one of the victims and I think that's where the crux of the discussion should be anyway.
False dilemma fallacy – the issue isn’t subject to a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ response.
Is it now? This thread started as a hypothetical discussion of the Oregon train incident, we know the outcome.
The fundamental question (in my eyes) boils down to
A man is about to stab you do death on a commuter train.. you have a gun.. do you use it?
And this is a false dilemma? really?
Someone is about to stab you, and you still can't make up your mind?
Does it even matter what context this is in? Even if YOU somehow provoked the attack or otherwise are in the wrong.. you're gonna allow someone to stab you?
Maybe im being unfair, I said would you use a "gun" in that situation, Maybe you're a ninja master and are going to disarm the man with your bare hands.. and If so I applaud you sir.. I certainly am not a ninja master, I am however reasonably competent with a pistol and that's what I would use if I had it.
Tell you what, take as many words as you need to fully answer such a question.
But there is no ambiguity here, If you do nothing you will die.. well I suppose that's not right.. 1 out of 3 did survive maybe you'll get lucky.
Again, citizens have the right to carry firearms pursuant to lawful self-defense, not act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement’ – not to be a ‘hero’ or to ‘save the day’ or to otherwise come to the defense of others.
Actually in my state I can intervene when ever I want.. it's called defense of other.. as long as the person im defending would have been lawful to use deadly force I can do so in their place.
If this was not so you would not be able to defend anyone but your self.. sorry wife and kids, sorry AZ trooper who was recently rescued by a private citizen (not the first time that's happen btw), you're on your own!
Then there is also the Citizens Arrest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest_in_the_United_States
Granted you do not have the same protections law enforcement has if you make a mistake, Im not suggesting people go patrol to make arrests.. and Im not suggesting you get involve in situations you don't know the circumstances of.
I would never suggest you put your family in harms way, They are your first priority, and I likewise would not suggest you enter a situation where you have no hope of helping (suicide mission)
But im kinda sick of people who act like if you even suggest being a decent human being by looking out for your fellow man you're some how a wannabe cop, vigilante, or have some sort of HERO complex.
I'll tell you a story, some years back I heard a disturbance.
I Looked out my front window and witnessed a crowd of 5 people 2 of which was whipping the ever loving crap out of my neighbor.
Even when he was on the ground they did not let up.
I called the police.. they never came.. finally the crowd got bored and left.
I called again and said forget the cops just send an ambulance, oh no we can't send an ambulance someone reported a fight in the area and we're waiting on police to secure.. finally about an hour later an ambulance shows up.. lucky my neighbor had no serious injuries just some welts resembling shoe prints on his face and a few cuts that needs stitches.
I felt like an absolute dick for sitting in my living room watching it unfold.
The police say "be the good witness"
I later found out the beat him up because he called their land lord on them for selling drugs out of the house they was renting.
When did trying to be a good person become such a vice?
I swear it reminds me of that old quote.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Indeed, disaster usually follows when someone attempts to be the ‘good guy with a gun.'
Rly? and how often does this happen? what about just being the "good guy" ya know without the gun.. how's that working for the 2 killed and 1 wounded?
Meh come to think of it I do remember that shooting in NY some years back where police fired like 50 rounds and most of which hit innocent bystanders, and then there was that other case they shot at a hi-jacked car of a suspect that robbed a bank and struck the baby in the back seat, can't remember if the mother was hit or not.
ya you might be on to something with this "good guys with guns" thing.
There are no guarantees, even inaction is a decision that only you can decide and will have to live with.
I have no hard statistics to point to but I believe most outcomes are going to be for the better not the worse.