Creating a new cartridge for fans of the 1911

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I'm more like the Liberace of 1911's.
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Oh, I am sure you are.

With that said, I have laughed all the way through this thread because of the type banality of it. Somebody comes along with an idea they think is new for the gun world and does some so-called market research and ask people for their opinions about said product and then want to argue with the opinions people have. What I am hearing is that the general consensus (opinion) of this is that it is not a great idea from the people that would be your potential market. You can't just argue with their opinion and proclaim your superior position in the gun world as the Liberace of Guns that invalidates everyone else's perspective.

You are going to have to do a much better job of convincing people this is a good idea for a product line other than by brow beating and claims of personal superiority. If this is your idea of research (telling research subjects they are wrong), it sucks. If this is your idea of salesmanship for the idea, it sucks.

If you have to argue with people about the product you want to sell as being somehow unique, better or superior, then you are pretty well starting off from a position of failure. So far, not one single response has been anything like, "This is exactly what I have been looking for..." or "This is the power bump the 1911 needed to be a real pistol."

My market is out shooting guns and having fun... not spending their whole days on this forum.
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You out shooting guns isn't a market, Liberace. You have certainly spent the morning here so far.

I look forward to your gun of uncertain name and uncertain caliber taking over the 1911 market.

we must tell them what they want and that is capitalism.
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I don't think you understand the difference between marketing and capitalism. I can foresee your business plan having some significant issues.
 
.475 whatdoicallit???

Since its your creation, you can name it anything you want to. Do some research to ensure your "original idea" isn't a recreation of something someone else designed, possibly decades ago.

Since it is your creation, why not just name it the ".475 Moon Falcon"???

Then people would refer to it as the .475MF, and, you know that would be popular....:D:rolleyes:

Lets look at some of the practical issues your idea creates...

First, and just so we can get it out of the way, cute "cartoon" names are a double edge blade with no guard. They will appeal to some people, (yay! sales!!) but how will they play in court, when there is a question of self defense involved??

Naming your product after a fictional vengance driven vigilante, or an assassin might just bite you, and any user in the butt under our legal system. (assuming copyright infringement isn't an issue)

Consider a DA's argument to the jury, "Ladies and Gentlemen this was NOT a justified self defense shooting! The defendant actively sought confrontation! He WANTED to kill people, to PUNISH people, (or DESTROY), and specifically chose a gun with that name to do it with!!!" etc.,

ITs not impossible you might face legal action for having "provided" just such a thing. Civil suit, most likely.

SO a name like that has a real world downside.

Now on to more physical points...

You want this to fit into a 1911A1 gun. The standard Govt Model size & design gun, NOT an enlarged "1911A1 pattern" gun, correct??

SO, how much metal will need to be removed from the barrel to make a chamber for the fatter round? Will this affect the strength of the gun? How much, if any?? What operating pressure level are you contemplating?

The relatively low pressure of the .45acp? Or something higher, in a barrel with thinner chamber walls???

We don't need another 475 Wildey Magnum with it's heavy recoil.
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My initial response to that was "then why bother??" :D
You ARE going to get heavier recoil, if you launch bullets heavier than the .45acp does, at the same speed, and much greater if they go faster.

Ok, so your round isn't going to be Wildey Magnum powerful, just a bit more than the .45acp. Fine. Your chosen bore size will be a drawback. (very few suitable slugs currently exist), your base case choice will be a drawback, .284 brass isn't common or cheap. Case body size will have an effect on things, including how many rounds can be fit in standard size magazines.

One of today's arguments against the .45acp 1911s is "limited magazine capacity". How many of those fat body rounds are going to fit in the gun?? 8? (is that even possible?) 7??? 6??

Higher than "regular" recoil levels, "low" magazine capacity, and a new, untried uncommon (and there for expensive) round are not selling points in today's defensive pistol market. Quite the opposite for many folks.

Today people are buying 9mm Lugers because of their perceived low recoil, their high ammo capacity and the low cost of ammo. Your .475 idea has none of those. Which means a very small niche market, if any.

I like magnum semiautos. Have several. People who want a semi with the most power practical aren't all that common, and their desires won't be met by a slightly more than .45acp and less than a magnum round in an uncommon bore size.

I think it is mechanically possible, but economically unfeasible in today's market, but good luck! I'd be happy to be proven wrong, in this case, but I don't think I will be.
 
I always assume that the originator has the resources to execute the project.

In this case, procuring or making a .475" barrel for 1911 action and a suitable bullet mold.
Cut off rifle brass will do.
Oh, yeah, it will require a 2011 or PO double stack action and magazines with lips mangled to pass a .50" O.D. round that will not fit a single stack clip.

A 230 gr .451" bullet has a sectional density of .162 which corresponds to a 256 gr .475". You could go a little heavier but not much with the limits of the 1911 action length. I think a 276 gr bullet, same as a 250 in .45, which has been loaded, would be at or near the maximum.

The increase in calibre will thin the chamber walls by 10%.
This is similar to the .44 Magnum - .45 Colt comparison.
.45 Ruger Only loads run to about 3/4 the chamber pressure of .44 Magnum which would put the .475 MF at 17250 psi relative to .45 ACP +P which is well under .45 ACP standard.
Fire up the Quickload, Sherman.
 
Moon Falcon---(I TOLD the Wright Brothers, and now I'm telling you, that thing will never fly!!!) There's lots of good information on this web site and it costs nothing to stick around and take advantage of it. Go over to the reloading formum and you might get some GREAT advice about loading up your new cartridge. Take any comments you think are harsh and roll with them and this site could be a 'good thing' for you.

That said, personally I like the 10mm cartridge, and I like the 1911 style guns but I don't like what the 10mm does to the 1911 (and yeah, I've been corrected on this view a few times on this site) so I wouldn't be a customer for your product but that's just me. Don't make anything of my opinion.

Everybody else---Are we being a bit harsh here on a brash newcomer?
 
Moon Falcom said:
Would there be any interest in such a cartridge?

What would be a good name for such a cartridge?
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We have .45 ACP, and we have .50 GI.

Why would we need or want a .475? It strikes me as the answer to a question nobody asked.
 
Moon Falcon said:
I know my market and a cartridge named Destroyer or Punisher would sell like hotcakes.
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What is your market? I'm a die-hard 1911 guy, and I don't know anyone who would be even remotely interested in a .475 caliber round for the 1911 -- and doubly not interested if it was named "Punisher" or "Destroyer."
 
Personally, I have absolutely no interest in some new special cartridge that at the end of the day will do nothing that’s currently available cartridge will do.
If it’s something that you want to do and are willing to live with the possibility you will need to load all your own ammo, I say go for it, but I probably wouldn’t hold my breath on it becoming a huge commercial success.

YMMV
 
Not wanted, not needed and predictably not successful.

However, you could claim the fame of creating an unused cartridge.
 
We don't need another 475 Wildey Magnum with it's heavy recoil.

What people said that they wanted was an improved 45 ACP but people rejected first the 451 Detonics Magnum and then the 45 Super so people doesn't really know what they want... we must tell them what they want and that is capitalism.
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You aren't reading anything, are you?
I provided what was, quite possibly, the most supportive and helpful post so far in this thread, and you took away a conclusion that wasn't even in it.

Good luck with your dead end dream.
 
FrankenMauser said:
You aren't reading anything, are you?
I provided what was, quite possibly, the most supportive and helpful post so far in this thread, and you took away a conclusion that wasn't even in it.

Good luck with your dead end dream.
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It was all dumb suggestions... I am not restricted to any current 1911 dimensions of any shape or form but it will look and it will function as a 1911.
 
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You suggested cut down .284 Win brass.

Now, a similar plan was in effect for the 44 Automag. 308 brass at the time was pretty cheap and easy. Most semiauto pistol shooters iike a convenient ammo supply chain.

Enough work went into a piece of 44Automag brass knee crawling around trying to recover it all was a factor. 50 rounds of brass for your Sharps Buffalo Rifle might get you by, but 50 rounds for a semi auto pistol... I dunno. Especially if I only find 47.

A parent 308/ 7.62 NATO case could be bought by the 5 gallon bucket cheap as long as there was a war someplace.

Not so much with .284 brass. You can get it from Lapua, Its not cheap. Does Win make a seasonal run? Maybe Hornady? Norma? I'd guess prices near $2 a case. (I don't have a ,284,I'm not current on price/availability. You get my point) I'd want at least 1000. Then there is the magazine question. 45 ACP uses the full width of a 1911 magazine, The 460 Rowland has a limitation in that the magazine is 45 ACP length but the case is longer, That limits bullet ogives,, It goes on. Frame,slide stop,ejector,trigger stirrup. etc. Sure,It CAN be done . For enough money.

Does your "Punisher" Market have a lot of money? Or is it tied up in their skateboard? Gameboy? Oculus?

A custom 1911 with unique,non standard parts? Low buck I'd say $3500 or more, Full custom magazines? I dunno. $130 or $200 each? And 1000 rounds .284 brass? Look it up.

Next question What is the Market need? What is the target? What does your cartridge deliver?

Or is it a solution in search of a problem?
 
HiBC said:
You suggested cut down .284 Win brass.

Now, a similar plan was in effect for the 44 Automag. 308 brass at the time was pretty cheap and easy. Most semiauto pistol shooters iike a convenient ammo supply chain.

Enough work went into a piece of 44Automag brass knee crawling around trying to recover it all was a factor. 50 rounds of brass for your Sharps Buffalo Rifle might get you by, but 50 rounds for a semi auto pistol... I dunno. Especially if I only find 47.

A parent 308/ 7.62 NATO case could be bought by the 5 gallon bucket cheap as long as there was a war someplace.

Not so much with .284 brass. You can get it from Lapua, Its not cheap. Does Win make a seasonal run? Maybe Hornady? Norma? I'd guess prices near $2 a case. (I don't have a ,284,I'm not current on price/availability. You get my point) I'd want at least 1000. Then there is the magazine question. 45 ACP uses the full width of a 1911 magazine, The 460 Rowland has a limitation in that the magazine is 45 ACP length but the case is longer, That limits bullet ogives,, It goes on. Frame,slide stop,ejector,trigger stirrup. etc. Sure,It CAN be done . For enough money.

Does your "Punisher" Market have a lot of money? Or is it tied up in their skateboard? Gameboy? Oculus?

A custom 1911 with unique,non standard parts? Low buck I'd say $3500 or more, Full custom magazines? I dunno. $130 or $200 each? And 1000 rounds .284 brass? Look it up.

Next question What is the Market need? What is the target? What does your cartridge deliver?

Or is it a solution in search of a problem?
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Colt in the 1870's managed to create metal pistol cartridges from scratch even though Samuel Colt died in 1862... I think that I can do the same some 150 years later.
 
Now, a similar plan was in effect for the 44 Automag. 308 brass at the time was pretty cheap and easy.
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First off, a small point, its two words, Auto Mag. Its the .44AMP (Auto Mag Pistol) like the .45ACP is the (Automatic Colt Pistol)

And, relatively speaking, .308 brass is still pretty cheap and easy. :D

The process is simple and straightforward, though time consuming when done entirely by hand. You cut off the .308 case and trim to a length of 1.298" (note this is slightly longer than the .44 Magnum)

Then, you ream the inside of the brass (neck ream) to take the .44 caliber bullet. Then load normally.

The (now named) 475 ATF would require cutting the .284 case to end up at .95" (as stated in the opening post) then, necking it down for the .475 caliber, then reaming that case neck to take the bullet.

I am not restricted to any current 1911 dimensions of any shape or form but it will look and it will function as a 1911.
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Thank you for answering my earlier question. IF you are considering a pistol with the look, and function of the 1911A1, but in a size other than the Colt, take a look at the LAR Grizzly.

While out of production now, it was a stretched, beefed up 1911A1 pattern gun (many of the parts will interchange with 1911s) and was made to run magnum revolver length rounds. I had one in .44 Magnum, and currently have one in .45 Win Mag. That size pistol will have no trouble with the length of the 475 ATF, but I'm not so sure about the width.

As already mentioned, one of the problems fitting your .475 into existing pistols of the 1911A1 pattern is going to be the width of the case. Not so much the barrel, but the magazines are going to have to be made to fit it, and possibly the frame width, as well.

If you are talking about a gun made for that round from the ground up, not an issue. But a conversion kit for existing 1911s probably won't work due to the additional width of the round. The .475 Wildey worked because the Wildey is a massive pistol and had the room for it. Regular .45acp 1911s simply don't have the frame width to make it easy, if it is actually possible (It may not be, I don't know)

SO, here's a point to consider, if you're going to need to use a purpose built gun for your 475, why limit it??

The point to the big bore and big case pistols is the power you can get from them.

Still, you might get it to work in something like the Para Ord "wide body" (double stack magazine) 1911s but I think you'd have to use a magazine designed for your 475 case, using the double stack 45acp size for a single stack 475 magazine.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, only to make you aware of the potholes (and Burmese Tiger traps) I can see in the road you're talking about going down.
 
I have decided to name this cartridge the 475 ATF
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Sounds vaguely anti-government threatening to me. Now you've really generated some interest in your intentions.

You claim vast experience in this area--can you post even one example of a firearm or cartridge you have successfully developed?
 
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44 AMP said:
First off, a small point, its two words, Auto Mag. Its the .44AMP (Auto Mag Pistol) like the .45ACP is the (Automatic Colt Pistol)

And, relatively speaking, .308 brass is still pretty cheap and easy. :D

The process is simple and straightforward, though time consuming when done entirely by hand. You cut off the .308 case and trim to a length of 1.298" (note this is slightly longer than the .44 Magnum)

Then, you ream the inside of the brass (neck ream) to take the .44 caliber bullet. Then load normally.

The (now named) 475 ATF would require cutting the .284 case to end up at .95" (as stated in the opening post) then, necking it down for the .475 caliber, then reaming that case neck to take the bullet.



Thank you for answering my earlier question. IF you are considering a pistol with the look, and function of the 1911A1, but in a size other than the Colt, take a look at the LAR Grizzly.

While out of production now, it was a stretched, beefed up 1911A1 pattern gun (many of the parts will interchange with 1911s) and was made to run magnum revolver length rounds. I had one in .44 Magnum, and currently have one in .45 Win Mag. That size pistol will have no trouble with the length of the 475 ATF, but I'm not so sure about the width.

As already mentioned, one of the problems fitting your .475 into existing pistols of the 1911A1 pattern is going to be the width of the case. Not so much the barrel, but the magazines are going to have to be made to fit it, and possibly the frame width, as well.

If you are talking about a gun made for that round from the ground up, not an issue. But a conversion kit for existing 1911s probably won't work due to the additional width of the round. The .475 Wildey worked because the Wildey is a massive pistol and had the room for it. Regular .45acp 1911s simply don't have the frame width to make it easy, if it is actually possible (It may not be, I don't know)

SO, here's a point to consider, if you're going to need to use a purpose built gun for your 475, why limit it??

The point to the big bore and big case pistols is the power you can get from them.

Still, you might get it to work in something like the Para Ord "wide body" (double stack magazine) 1911s but I think you'd have to use a magazine designed for your 475 case, using the double stack 45acp size for a single stack 475 magazine.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, only to make you aware of the potholes (and Burmese Tiger traps) I can see in the road you're talking about going down.
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Heavy recoil handgun cartridges are not successful in the market besides the 357 Magnum from 1935 and the 44 Magnum from 1953.
 
stagpanther said:
Sounds vaguely anti-government threatening to me. Now you've really generated some interest in your intentions.

You claim vast experience in this area--can you post even one example of a firearm or cartridge you have successfully developed?
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Chill, it was a joke... doesn't everyone just love the ATF?

Where did I ever claim that I have developed new cartridges?

If Dan Coonan could create a 1911 to fire the 357 Magnum with it's rimmed cartridge then it would be even easier for me to get a 1911 to fire a short .475'' rimless round.
 
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Jim Watson said:
The .357 Ring of Fire first showed up at
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585771&highlight=ring+of+fire
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586990&highlight=ring+of+fire
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598361&highlight=ring+of+fire

As you can see, we were doubtful of his claims.
But he got some ink
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/9/30/review-357-ring-of-fire/

And offered to sell.
https://ringoffiremfg.com

Dave might well be approachable on a .475 Auto development.
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What he did wrong was that he didn't create his own high capacity pistol for his 357 Ring of Fire cartridge.

He tried with a Glock 20 conversion kit and it looks like it failed to gain much if any sales.
 
Sorry, it wouldn't interest me a bit. I've got plenty just to keep up with 9mm, 45 ACP, 38/357, and 22 LR.

I was mildy interested in the 45 Gap for a few weeks, but never even saw one.

Good luck with your project though.
 
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