Could you squeeze the trigger?

S

Sir William

New member
OK. The rumour around is that a CCW armed citizen was in the Tacoma, WA mall. The armed citizen had a weapon, a good sight picture but, an uncertain backstop and too many IBs in the area. No free fire exchange. I applaud the decision NOT to fire. The question is, IF there were a good backstop, no IBs and you have a sight picture, could you squeeze the trigger? Introspection time.
 
Yup

Not a problem. And no nightmares after, either....

That is until I'm actually in the given situation. People never really know how they'll react. You can drill, train, rehearse scenarios in the mind endlessly, but until you've been there, done that, nothing is certain.
I've seen plenty of big talkers crumble or freeze up under pressure. I've done well in "life or death" kind of pressure at work, so I think I'd do all right, but who can really say?

Just my .02
 
There are a lot of variables for me.

Ten years ago, yes, without question. Today, if my daughter was with me, honestly, I'm not so sure. Firing increases the risk of drawing fire considerably, and I think protection of my child would over ride everything. Even if she was not there, I increase her risk of becoming an orphan. So, in all honesty, unless my own life is at risk, I am not so sure any more. I'm not as idealistic as I once was, and I'm a lot more in touch with my own mortality.
 
Correct action on the part of the CCW holder but does anyone think he should have gone back and attempted to solve the problem? What are our responsibilities; moral obligations?
 
Wasn't there a situation where a man intervened in a similar scenerio? Only difference is it took place outside of a courthouse, but a semi-auto rifle was being used by the BG. BG also had a vest. The CCW holder ended up being executed. Out-gunned, and shooting at body armor.

There was also a cop who took on a guy with a semi-auto rifle. He didn't shoot when he had the chance, let the BG get into the cab of his truck to retrieve the rifle. He was executed as well. Out-gunned.

I see a pattern here.
 
When someone comes up with a clearly defined set of moral obligations, then we can decide if a civilian who doesn't enter a gun fight is doing the 'right' thing.

I'm not being flip. It is easy to to say that one must intervene or risk one's life when you are not there.

If you say one should fight to help one's fellow, one could easily say that one should down scale one's life and give all surplus income to those who are righteously needy. Altruism is not easily defined. Very few live a life of total sacrifice to others.
 
Unfortunately, I don't have the training or skills to be the hero in this situation - and I'm betting a majority of TFL's membership is in the same boat. Risking my life is not a default setting. Others choose to walk around unprotected - not my fault.

Many circumstances would have to be in place for me to even entertain the idea of saving the day - but I feel no moral obligation. Sure, I like to think I could swoop in and save the day, get a medal from the Mayor, be on the local news... but c'mon. :cool:

I'm all about "help your fellow man"... Someone drowning? I'm divin' in. Someone in a car accident? I'm pullin' over (did last Tuesday, truck flipped on the highway due to snow). CPR needed? I'm first in line.

But I'm also realistic, value my own life (how selfish of me), and value the thought of watching my son grow up. To jump in with my less than stellar pistol skills, against a dude with an AK - Uh... no thanks. ;)
 
To save lives I will stop someone who is murdering people, if I don't have a good shot then I will move to a better position. To let these kinds of criminals go unchalleged is to be a nuetered man. If you are unwilling to use the gun then save yourself the discomfort of carrying it and leave it at home.:eek:

25
 
As cruel as it sounds, my family comes first. Like someone else said if, if I'm with my kid my top priority is getting them out, or putting them in a place were I can defend them. Taking a pistol shot at someone with an assault rifle is tough and will draw fire in your direction. On the other hand, if my family is home and I'm taking cover alone (no one else in my area of the mall), and I have a clear shot at him where over penetration or a miss is not an issue, and the guy is STILL SHOOTING (maybe he is not on a killing spree and just came to shoot someone and leave), I might try to take the shot. There are a lot of variables with my decision, I do not want to make matters worse.
 
The answer is Yes, I could! Not pull the trigger once, but at least twice. Even if you are not taking direct fire, you might be next. If some fool is shooting up a mall indescriminately, he has to be taken out or isolated. In this case (tacoma Mall) he was isolated and eventually disarmed (sould be interesting to see if he was out of ammo when arrested).
 
in that guy's shoes, i would have done the same thing. get your family out of harm's way. do not engage as it might draw fire onto your wife and daughter. it would be nice if we really could save everyone but we can't. we must pick and choose. family is the obvious choice.

Bobby
 
First I would ensure my family was safely out of harms way, then I may engage depending on the situation. I would need to be very certain I could get a shot off from well within my comfortable range, and not be detected while taking aim, otherwise I am out of there. I would also be damn certain I had cover to fire from and a good path of retreat.

I have already told my wife that all the malls in our area have back exits through the access halls behind each shop. That is where she should go with our daughter.

Someone mentioned a CCW holder in a shooting in Texas. The town was Tyler Texas and the citizen was Randy Weaver. Mr. weaver hit the criminal and exchanged multiple shots with him. Unfortunately the BG was wearing a vest in addition to having a rifle. After injuring Mr. Weaver the BG walked up to him and executed him. The local authorities were clear in stating that Mr. Weaver's intervention most certainly saved the life of the criminals estranged son and very likely save the lives of other individuals, some of whom were already wounded, on the scene. After being delayed for some time with Mr. Weaver the criminal was forced to flee the scene as multiple officers responded.

People here especially should remember Mr. Randy Weaver and the sacrafice he made for his fellow man.
 
These kinds of situations are pretty tough. You know the bad guy will kill people if you don't intervene, but a bad shot will kill innocent bystanders.

My decision would probably have to be based on my proximity to the shooter. If he is firing at me in particular, I would draw and fire. If I am a little farther away, I would try to seek cover and fire if given the opportunity from a stable platform. That ought to improve my aim while reducing my chances of being hit.

If I were with loved ones, I would draw and fire if we were fired upon. I would try to get them to safety and then fire from cover.

I don't want to play hero but I do believe in self preservation. I will try and protect others if my actions will not likely make things worse (read as hitting bystanders or getting myself and or my loved ones killed). I applaud those who always play the hero but it is not unreasonable to secure your interests first. This is only human nature, not cowardice.

Edit... Musketeer must have been reading my thoughts and posted before I finished my post. I apologize for the similar post.
 
I have already worked it out with my wife, she was concerned that when i started carrying that i would look for opportunities to use it but i explained that if something bad happened the purpose of the gun was to get to somewhere safer and that means going through a BG if necessary. Otherwise it is for self defense not public offense, could I be the hero? sure, but then what would happen to my widdow?:(
 
Yeah, I would shoot if necessary, though I think the guy in question acted properly under the conditions. It seems to me that anyone who decides to pack iron MUST answer that question clearly within himself or herself before a weapon is strapped on. If you're not willing to use the weapon to defend yourself, you're better off leaving it at home and hope the police arrive in time (after which your will can be read). :barf:
 
I believe I could pull the trigger. I have noticed my tendency in extremely stressfull situations is to go very cold and take-charge, so I don't think I would panic and fail. As others have said, your family is the first priority, but once they are safe, I believe the proper thing to do would be to go back in and engage the BG.

Edited to remove a statement which might have sent the thread OT.
 
Kooks with AK's shooting up malls tend to be 2 things:
1. Premeditated.
2. Well equipped.

This guy had a 7.62x39 rifle that will shoot thru all the available cover for you to use while exchanging fire.

He also has at least 20 rounds per magazine, whereas your little ccw pistol has 5 shots (snubbie revolver) or maybe as many as 10-12 rounds of 9mm if you are lucky.

He probably has several extra mags. You may have one reload on you.

He may even be wearing surplus kevlar. I see "used" kevlar at gunshows all the time for very cheap. I would certainly buy it if I were going to "kook out" and try to take out a mall.

What do you think you will be able to do against a man with an assault rifle and potentially wearing kevlar and a death wish, with your little snubbie or tiny auto?

Covering your own @$$ is the best thing you can do in that situation, and helping as many people as immediately near by to evacuate.
 
After reading many of these posts, I can't help but think back to the LA shootout deal...with guys wearing body armor carrying an AK. I completely agree that you have to consider this the possibility - so why would one not be considering the head shot?

If it came down to where you had the drop on the BG, with him likely not expecting resistance immediately, you can find a position and take the time to get the shot.

Personally, my moral decision is to only fire if fired upon, unless the guy is obviously random - meaning my number might come up. In that case, as mentioned above, find cover or the best concealment and take the best shot first.
 
azredhawk44 - common sense and rational thinking will not be tolerated. :D

You are a neutered man unless you engage the enemy at all costs. :rolleyes:
 
for ws6_keith

Can you make a headshot with a tiny snubbie wheel gun or your CCW pocket gun? Even if you carry a glock26 or 19, can you reliably make a headshot at 50 feet, with that pressure, on a moving target?

Are you willing to sneak up closer to this guy as he is scanning for targets? He is probably moving, himself, and you want to stealthily get within 25 feet for a headshot?

He outguns you, has more ammo, may be wearing light armor, and is okay with dying today.

I'm bugging out and helping anybody else do the same thing as are immediately accessible. That's all, folks. Let the police SWAT and sniper teams take care of him. My little .380 is not gonna do the trick, and that's why the SWAT guys carry M4's and .45's.
 
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