Could you have stopped it?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Human decency? I've seen too much. The possibility that one person in a mob of 100 people might actually be worth saving is enough reason for me to make an attempt if possible.

Out of the rest of that mob of 100 there may be one or more pedophiles, maybe a few violent offenders of some sort. There are probably a dozen people in any random crowd whom I wouldn't walk across the street to save from a speeding car. Wife beaters, child abusers, Identity thieves, dealers in drugs or guns, anyone who would aid and abet or participate in a heinous crime.


I see people here who are saying that the guy across the street doesn't matter at all and that his survival, no matter who he is, is no concern. That a targeted person is just out of luck because nobody is worth risking your life for. Whatever. That is an individual decision that won't be made until the time comes, no matter what we say in advance.

There are people who believe in fate or whatever, and believe that there are enough worthy people out there to take that chance. The guy in the shooter's crosshairs may be a mad dog killer who should be put down anyway, and he may be a surgeon at a children's cancer hospital. I'm inclined to think that saving a random stranger's life is something that I should do even if there's a pretty high risk involved.

Should we jump into boiling water to save another person's dog? That's just plain stupid. There are vague, wiggly lines between stupid and doing what you believe to be the right thing regardless of risk.
 
Most likely I'll try to escape, while watching for an opportunity while the bad guy is distracted.

Interesting anecdote. I was trying to teach one of my nephews boxing. As we sparred he would attempt to hit me, miss, turn and run. This was getting annoying as we had no actual ring and I told him the next time he turned his hip that much I was going to drop him. I did (hitting someone on a downward angle on the top of the hip as they turn to run tend to drop them). I told him a lesson I have tried to instill in my own children: you either fight or you run. If you are attempting to escape commit all the resources you have to that attempt but do not get distracted from that attempt by worrying about looking for a moment of distraction to change directions.

Fighting in order to create an opportunity to run is slightly different.
 
Although I'm in OK shape and shoot regularly, my first priority for any Active Shooter situation would be to get myself and those I care about the hell out of dodge. If I can't get out, I'd hunker down with my gun at my side. I'm in my mid 50's and searching for an Active Shooter in the hopes of bringing them down would be would be stupid.
 
I like to recall what Babe Ruth said. If you swing at the ball you have a 50% chance of missing, if you don't swing you have a 100% chance.
 
Not quite a good analogy, but okay.

In active shooter, you actually have about just short of ten or so probable results. Hide and survive, hide and get shot. fight and die, or fight and survive. Run and survive, or get shot in the back.

I think that we should clarify an issue. With all of the talk, there's one thing that seems to be missing.

Our mall is a literal labyrinth. If I heard shots, i'm not sure if I could locate them. So, for sake of discussion, I believe that it was food court, where it probably would be anyway. I just might be looking at a store at the store that's 150 feet away and around the corner. t's a long run from there to food court. The shooter may be far away when I get there, and be armed with a long range firearm. for example, he may have just walked in the front door. What should I do?

There is a great deal of difference between this and most of the other scenarios that come up, it seems. Is a rage shooter going to want to shoot like he's at a gallery, or will he want to do it where he can see the faces as he shoots them?
 
If I heard shots, i'm not sure if I could locate them.

I agree.
Most think that they can immediately find the shooter. But, what if what you find first is another armed citizen that is shooting at the shooter?
What if you shoot him?
Lots to consider in nanoseconds.
 
Interesting anecdote. I was trying to teach one of my nephews boxing. As we sparred he would attempt to hit me, miss, turn and run. This was getting annoying as we had no actual ring and I told him the next time he turned his hip that much I was going to drop him. I did (hitting someone on a downward angle on the top of the hip as they turn to run tend to drop them). I told him a lesson I have tried to instill in my own children: you either fight or you run. If you are attempting to escape commit all the resources you have to that attempt but do not get distracted from that attempt by worrying about looking for a moment of distraction to change directions.

That's a good point. I think what I meant :rolleyes: was while looking for an opportunity to escape, don't miss an opportunity to fight back. I agree that once you've started your response you should be committed to it.
 
Do you think you have the skill level and experience to stop a mass shooter event with your CCW pistol?

How about a simulation?:

Set up a helium balloon about 6 feet from the ground at a distance that simulates the scenario under discussion. Next, surround that balloon with 10-15 differently-colored helium balloons at the same height to represent the chaos of others fleeing that you don't want to shoot. Hopefully, there is a breeze to create movement. If not, bring a fan. Can you still hit your target balloon with your CCW pistol and not hit the others?

Too easy? Try again with a stereo blasting music. Many of these shootings have happened at night clubs and there will be a lot of extra noise. Still too easy? include a smoke machine. Visibility is not ideal (I imagine) during these incidents. You will also have hormone-induced tunnel vision. Still too easy? Try it at night. Many of these mass shootings have occurred at night. Still too easy? Increase the stress level by having someone shooting back at you with a rifle (not recommended).

I agree with zxcvbob, if a shooter just happens to materialize in front of you and you have the opportunity for an easy shot then, by all means, take it. If not... get out!
 
I read some really crazy stuff on these subject's. Something few seem to consider. You get into a situation like that and odds are it will be the first time you've ever been in the situation. We can't possibly know what is going to happen at that moment. I believe the thing to keep in mind is preservation of your family and yourself. You start attacking bad guys at long range and you are asking for trouble! Simple as that. You attack a guy with a rifle and same thing, your looking to get shot and for what? Police are paid and, hopefully, trained to take the situation on. You get yourself in the middle of it and they just might shoot you! You want to help people? Help them retreat, live to fight another day!
 
You get into a situation like that and odds are it will be the first time you've ever been in the situation.

you must be kidding. I go through mass shootings every night. I have chronic problems with nightmares.

With all of this experience and training, I'm absolutely certain that I could take down the entire manson family with miniguns.
 
If I'm carrying, which I can't do at work so it's mostly weekends or if I go out in the evening, it's an LCR w/.38+p or a Keltec P32. Maybe sometimes a Shield 9. I don't fancy myself a John Wick stand-in, and I'm not going to take on a AK or AR unless like others said he's RIGHT THERE and I have a clear unobstructed shot, preferably from the back/side, or straight on if I have no other viable option to escape.

Often when my wife and I go to a Walmart we go separate directions with our lists. If the shooting was coming from the part of the store where I knew my wife was, that might change my calculations some.
 
Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.
 
The algorithm of decision in these cases will cover far more bits and bytes than the average stockbroker's programs.

That's an interesting thought. The stakes are about the same. You may make a huge profit, or succeed in your mission with no further casualties.

You might lose everything you have, such as when Enron went down like the titanic. You might go running full speed right into the arms of a man with an AK and take a hit to the chest and becoming just another body to count.

We Americans (some of us at least) expect a police officer to run these algorithms in less than a second, and lets be serious. A stock broker has better intel before he places that $5,000,000 hedge bet on nestles or ford. That stockbroker doesn't have to gamble on whether the pre-teen boy is actually holding a gun, or one carved out of a 2x4 such as dillinger used.

Every time I think or read about these situations, it makes me even more certain that I never want to be put in that spot. My pizza always falls with the cheese side down and if there lightning has struck my home and trees three times.

There's another algorithm. Do we spend $2,000 on a rod system or do we count on insurance?
 
Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.

That is your decision to make, and I can assure you that you will be re-thinking it even as it happens. It's not a decision like braking for a car. You're going to stop. It's going to be closer to braking for a deer. It may be smarter to brake, pull aside, or if you are in crazy wall to wall traffic you may just grit your teeth and say bye-bye to bambie.
 
Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.
You have the right plan but sometimes, if you're unlucky enough that day, the way out is forward. Don't rule out any possibilities ahead-of-time.
 
The only way I’m engaging the shooter is if he’s between me and the exit, or if he happens to walk past with his back to me and I’m cut off.

I’m not a cop. I don’t even pretend to be. Someone made a comment about being a coward for not defending innocent lives, but I’m going to turn that on it’s head. If those innocent lives had wanted to be protected they should have brought their own gun. Once I have my family out I’m not going back in and squander my incredible luck at not being killed in the first wave.
 
I guess my short answer is I don't know. Not sure anyone does until they are in that situation.

We train ,we practice ,we prepare, but decisions have to be made in seconds.

Would I run toward gunfire no. Would I return fire if cornered by shooter I would like to think so . Do I engage a shooter with a superior weapon? Depends on the situation. If standing by an exit would I run ? YES as fast as my old legs could go.
 
When I was sworn, I'd would be obligated to run to the gunfire. I'm retired now.

My first obligation is the safety of the family. It's too easy to be mistaken for the shooter and be shot by another CCW or the police. Now, if I had no choice, I'd do my best to take out the shooter.
 
The only way I’m engaging the shooter is if he’s between me and the exit, or if he happens to walk past with his back to me and I’m cut off.

I’m not a cop. I don’t even pretend to be. Someone made a comment about being a coward for not defending innocent lives, but I’m going to turn that on it’s head. If those innocent lives had wanted to be protected they should have brought their own gun. Once I have my family out I’m not going back in and squander my incredible luck at not being killed in the first wave.

:cool: Exactly
 
I guess my short answer is I don't know. Not sure anyone does until they are in that situation.

We train ,we practice ,we prepare, but decisions have to be made in seconds.

Would I run toward gunfire no. Would I return fire if cornered by shooter I would like to think so . Do I engage a shooter with a superior weapon? Depends on the situation. If standing by an exit would I run ? YES as fast as my old legs could go.
/\/\THIS/\/\
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top