Could you have stopped it?

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Am I going to be the lone voice here who doesn’t give the generic “hole up and hide with gun facing outward” politically correct for a CCW holder comment?

There is a mass shooter taking innocent lives, you’ve heard several shots fired and the shooting continues. You have a firearm, and could possibly save lives by acting quickly. You could also be shot first. You are not obligated to do anything, legally, but as a decent human being with an ounce of bravery do you at least try!?

There is no shame with protecting the family and staying with them. There is no shame in not feeling confident enough to engage. Let’s say you’re alone and you are quite the accomplished shooter, plus you have the courage to engage. Do you let the fear of police misidentifying you hinder your ability to potentially save human lives, maybe even children’s lives? I hope not.

We have an inclination here to err to the side of avoid armed conflict at all costs, just because you CCW doesn’t mean you should look for a fight. Well generally I agree with that. This isn’t like walking the other way when the potential would-be mugger approaches you. That situational awareness prevention tactic is out the window. Bullets are flying and kids are dying. Being the good little “avoid confrontation at all costs” CCW holder and “being a good witness” is much less appropriate here than when the local stop and rob gets hit for the 3rd time this year. A robber usually just wants to get some cash and run without hurting anyone. This guy was here to kill as many people as possible.


OP to directly answer your question, I think I COULD have stopped it. I also COULD have been shot. Depends on where I was in relation to shooter, available cover between me and him, etc.
 
Some goober with an Unkle Mike's holster and a LCP .380 is going to go up against an AK or AR pistol armed dude wearing body armor. Ok. unless the BG is RIGHT THERE thats a bad idea.

I shoot three to four competitions a month. I am on a marksmanship team (they'll take anyone evidently). Not bragging, just stating where I am coming from. I know what my strengths and limitations are and know with my M&Pc I am at a severe disadvantage against a rifle firing mass shooter (or more if this is a Mumbai style attack).

If I am in a store / mall /hotel I am going to get my family to an exit in the back. I will attempt to secure that exit so others can get out too. I am not going to engage unless I have to.

The exception to this is church. I am usually in the lobby. I have plotted out positions and I am armed substantially differently there.
 
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OP to directly answer your question, I think I COULD have stopped it. I also COULD have been shot. Depends on where I was in relation to shooter, available cover between me and him, etc.
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You could have also stopped it if you were the
“hole up and hide with gun facing outward” person..with your family behind you, if he came around you.

BUT holing up with gun facing outward isn't cowardice nor lack of confidence but a reasoned response to a situation...

IMHO, of course.
 
It's one thing to take a rifle and shoot unarmed people who aren't suspecting anything. However, once someone starts shooting back at the cowardly shooter, that pressure likely will cause the lone shooter to pause, take cover, and make mistakes. I think it is worth it to shoot back if you have the skills and ability to do so.
 
There is no shame in not feeling confident enough to engage. Let’s say you’re alone and you are quite the accomplished shooter, plus you have the courage to engage. Do you let the fear of police misidentifying you hinder your ability to potentially save human lives, maybe even children’s lives? I hope not.
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Tactically, running around looking for a bad guy to shoot for a CCL holder is stupid. You are not equipped or trained and most likely will only create even more confusion in an already confusing situation.

The cops shooting you takes away from their response times to the actual crime being committed.

During the Orlando Airport shooting, there was an armed civilian individual who was not trained for the situation at hand who "moved to the sound of gunfire". He ran weapon exposed through the airport looking for the shooter. He almost got himself shot and the cops ended up spending time detaining him, trying to figure out if he was the shooter, instead of dealing with the actual shooter. Once more, panic'd civilians running away from him ran towards the real shooter.

He took time and resources away and slowed down the response time resulting in more casualties.

You do not know what is going on except in your immediate sector. A stupid decision on your part trying to be a misguided hero can end up causing more deaths instead of saving lives. Once more, while good samaritan laws will protect most CCL holders in defense of another life.....

A one man flow drill thru the mall is going to be hard to justify especially when one considers the innocents under cover you will displace.

Fireforged says:
I am not likely to go running around looking for the badguy but if he is relatively close to me and I can quickly manage get good position on him, I will probably try to stop him in order to defend others. If I am directly threatened by the badguy I will respond regardless of the risk. I have long since decided that I am not going to allow someone to place me in life threatening jeopardy with complete impunity, I am going to do something to stop it.
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Very common sense and a good general plan. IN this case, you are not advocating running around looking for the bad guy.

Outside of that, one can "What IF" this scenario to death.
 
There's a lot of good commentary here, much of which boils down to two words that I've already used -- situational awareness. I would add one more -- reconnaissance.

Most of my time at Walmart is spent in the food section, and one thing about that part of the store -- there's plenty of cover.

D
 
"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
"...shooting back at the cowardly shooter..." Aside from the likelihood of getting shot by equally frightened cops, an untrained CCW type would very likely endanger bystanders and panicked civilians
"...three to four competitions a month..." That is playing shooting games. It is not practice or training for anything but the shooting games.
"...stopping power..." There's no such thing.
"...propane tank bombs..." Explosives in a propane tank or pressure cooker maybe. However, a full propane tank doesn't and will not explode. Nice big ball of fire, but no frag. Poke a hole in an LPG tank gets you get a nice, gentle, white cloud spreading over the ground(propane being heavier than air) but nothing else without a spark.
 
5whiskey said:
There is a mass shooter taking innocent lives, you’ve heard several shots fired and the shooting continues. You have a firearm, and could possibly save lives by acting quickly. You could also be shot first. You are not obligated to do anything, legally, but as a decent human being with an ounce of bravery do you at least try!?
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That's not a yes or no question, although I believe you are trying to shame everyone into responding "Of course I would try" to avoid being labeled as not being a decent human being.

What's your definition of being a decent human being? Suppose you have a wife and family. Maybe they are there with you, maybe they aren't. Doesn't matter. Shouldn't a "decent human being" do everything within his or her ability to take care of spouse and family? Maybe you're the primary (or only) breadwinner in your family. What happens to your family if you don your superhero cape, go charging toward the sound of the gunfire, and get yourself killed?

In those states that allow personal carry of a firearm, the carry and the use of that firearm is allowed for use in defending the carrier and in defending innocent third parties. Note: The use of deadly force is allowed, it is not required. The law does not label you "Not a decent human being" if you do the math and decide that today isn't the day you choose to play first responder.

Being a "decent human being" does not require me to act suicidally or recklessly by getting into a shootout with an opponent who is better armed than I am.
 
T. O'Heir said:
"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
"...shooting back at the cowardly shooter..." Aside from the likelihood of getting shot by equally frightened cops, an untrained CCW type would very likely endanger bystanders and panicked civilians
"...three to four competitions a month..." That is playing shooting games. It is not practice or training for anything but the shooting games.
"...stopping power..." There's no such thing.
"...propane tank bombs..." Explosives in a propane tank or pressure cooker maybe. However, a full propane tank doesn't and will not explode. Nice big ball of fire, but no frag. Poke a hole in an LPG tank gets you get a nice, gentle, white cloud spreading over the ground(propane being heavier than air) but nothing else without a spark.
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I find your lack of faith in propane and propane related products, disturbing.
 
Always a good education on the FL. seems there is no satisfactory answer. Really about too many variables and circumstances...if I found myself close enough, say around 15 yards or closer and I though I was not targeted I would let loose with every thing I had.

But the chances of that are like finding a needle in two haystacks!....If I was that close and saw a muzzle pointed in my direction I would run, duck or dive into the nearest cover or maybe just run like hell. Whether to draw a weapon at that time is also circumstantial, if I was cornered then without a doubt....but maybe by that time it would be risky to take action because the good guys would probably be on the scene.

Again, too many ifs and maybes...better to have an escape plan at all times.
 
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No second thoughts

Could you have stopped it?

I wonder how many are contemplating, like I am, whether they could have ended either of the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?
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Probably "NOT" but know that I would have tried with little or no hesitation. I am a Veteran and know how I have reacted in past situations. Some I can't recall entirely. ….. :confused:

Be Safe !!!
 
The rules for me are simple. In my home, I will defend. In public I will shelter unless or until I can cleanly fire. In church (the main reason I have a gun) I will charge any shooter.
 
IDisposable said:
The rules for me are simple. In my home, I will defend. In public I will shelter unless or until I can cleanly fire. In church (the main reason I have a gun) I will charge any shooter.
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I like your attitude. Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone. It's not a crime in the state of Alabama to carry in church, but I would have to leave, if I were discovered.

D
 
I carry 100% of the time. I carry to protect myself, my family and close friend's only. All I've read suggest's that you shoot someone and don't kill them, they could come back and sue you. Kill them and the family sue's you. Even if you win you'll be broke the rest of your life paying off the good lawyer that saved you, probably so he could have your money! If your one of those people going unarmed and your worried bout it, I strongly suggest you get yourself armed. I for one will not interfere on your half so long as the shooter and his family have the right to sue me for doing so, the h*ll with that. You get armed and protect yourself!
 
DaveBj said:
I like your attitude. Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone. It's not a crime in the state of Alabama to carry in church, but I would have to leave, if I were discovered.

D
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You could be asked to leave by your pastor or carried out in a body bag by EMT's. Your choice!
 
That's not a yes or no question, although I believe you are trying to shame everyone into responding "Of course I would try" to avoid being labeled as not being a decent human being.
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I was not trying to shame anything other than PC excuses. If self preservation kicks in, you don’t feel it’s your day to play hero, and you head for an exit or shelter taking as many innocents with you as possible? No judgement here. I understand that. Hell thats still heroic. I’m not saying I would brave up and run to gunfire. I’ve been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once as line infantry. I’ve been a cop over 10 years. I’m not an ace cop or war hero, but I’ve been shot at. I’ve seen the same person react to two very similar situations in radically different ways. Because I’ve seen that, I’m not going to bravado what I would do even if I have responded more or less appropriately under fire in the past. I have kids now, and a lot more going on than I used to.

What I am saying is if you’re at peace taking the risk, and have confidence in your equipment and abilities (probably not an lcp, and probably not if I hadn’t fired a round in the past 3 years) that you stand a fair chance at stopping something like that, are you going to let “I should be a good witness” or “I might get sued by the guys family” stand in your way? That’s the mentality I’m talking about. It’s letting peripheral circumstances and what ifs get in the way of possibly saving lives. If I did respond, did shoot the guy and possibly saved lives, and got sued for it after the fact... I would still be at peace and sleep like a baby at night.


And an important advantage you would likely have in a scenario like this that the shooter doesn’t. You know he’s there, and an idea of what direction he’s in. He has no clue you’re there. I still wouldn’t run around with a .32 seecamp trying to play hero against someone with a rifle. But if you have a G19 and know you’re quite proficient to 50 yards... that’s radically different. Wait, and someone will comment that shooting at a mass shooter at that distance will get you charged criminally comes along in 3, 2, 1 (news flash it won’t)
 
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DaveBj said:
Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone.
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Ironically, I have been gun free for about 15 years until I was asked to join the church security detail earlier this year. I ended up selecting a Kahr S9 for a nice discreet arm and have been carrying since. Took some good training, got my city issued CCW license (not required in MO) and then got my security license.

I grew up with lots of guns, but after the kids showed up I had sold them off (better uses for the cash and all).

I also have been strongly considering some insurance... not to open a can of worms, but any opinions on USCCA or competitors?
 
My gun is for the protection of me, my family, and my employees at work. Two of the three I have a positive moral duty to protect. Could I have stopped a mass shooting? If I was in a position I could not retreat from and was under direct or near direct threat I would have tried. I would not try if it was hopeless. Could I have been successful? It’s possible. Is it likely given a competent, determined, and well equipped opponent seemingly willing to die? Probably not. I would assume he was as competent as I am or more. Maybe I am more determined and as willing to accept mortality but these shooters had a massive leg up on equipment.
 
I had a pop quiz last year and ended up clearing my house solo. I found out that I am worse at this than even I expected.

Most of the witness accounts of these stories begin with "I heard a sound like fireworks" or similar. The fog of war is a real thing. Admitting that you have limits isn't an admission of will or resolve.

If I were with my family and I heard shots ring out, it might be police. I don't know and I'm not going looking. I'm going to secure my family and find an exit. If while exiting I encounter a character who looks out of place (or perfectly in place as a mass shooter), say a man walking around the yogurt aisle of a grocery store with a bomb-laced vest and a smoking AK47, I might have to engage him to improve the odds of my family escaping.
If I were solo, and I met said rifle-bearing person while exiting, I might engage as well. I would certainly hope to meet them with their back turned and while they were tying their shoe laces.

Engaging a man carrying a rifle at extended distances using a pistol isn't a well-baked plan. Sometimes it's all you have, but the situation would dictate. The basic lay of the land in any of these scenarios is that the attacker has chosen the time and place to put himself or herself at the tactical advantage. There might be more than one aggressor; people might be so bunched up that the victims can't move; he/she/they might have locked the exits; they might be wearing armor. There's no telling, but be sure you don't know everything.
 
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