Concerned about lethality of .223/5.56

Status
Not open for further replies.
No offense but stop buying M855 for HD if that's your purpose. There are much better alternatives out there to be had for HD.

Added : I hesitate to say it but realistically, for me, M855 is little more than just range fodder.
 
Spend your time developing a mobility plan. That way you don't get stuck having to defend a static position against a determined, repeated attack by a presumably numerically superior force. If you are alone and you can't handle whatever comes with no more than a few mags of 5.56 you should be running from it, not fighting it.

This will be much more productive than talking yourself into choosing .22 over 5.56.
 
Within fragmentation range or with expanding bullet 5.56 is abolutely devestating on soft targets.

Yeah, its not that great at pentrating barriers, but when it hits soft tissue its a mess. Expanding bullets+3000+fps is scary.
 
"As far as a .22 rimfire, I figure that improving sinus drainage or doing cataract surgery with one would tend to create an attitude adjustment on the part of a Bad Guy. Wouldn't be my first choice, of course, but better than a loud scream, for sure."
Click to expand...

That's classic. It reminds me of something I'd have said.

I'd like to mention, though, that if you find yourself defending your home against a mob with nothing but a .22 lr, you won't need 5,000 rounds. I don't think you'll even use up a whole box before your house is burned down around you.

any group of persons has this thing called a collective intellect, and your average mob has the collective intellect of a lab rat. Eventually if you shoot enough of them, they will either ignore that fact and the mob will get you, or they will back off and figure out a safer way to kill you. Either way, yer gonna die if you have an angry mob out to get you and you fail to either kill them all, convince them to leave, or escape.

In most cases, you would be better off either

A. not drawing attention to yourself in the first place
B. diverting their attention elsewhere
C. Exercising the better judgement of flight, rather than fight.

It was an effective technique in combat zones to leave contraband in plain sight, and then snipe anyone who took it. if I was in the situation of being one man against an angry, hungry mob, I'd hang a happy meal from a tree limb in the park across the street, then shoot every looter who tried to steal my happy meal. When I got tired of doing it and the pile of bodies was high enough, i'd let someone have the happy meal.
 
I'll echo what I've said a dozen times...the 5.56 cartridge is fine. The bullet selection is where the problem lies.


The Hague Convention is a travesty of the utmost proportions.

Further more, wounding the bad guy to take him and sevral of his mates out of the fight is great if your fighting Germany, but in my time in the Sandbox the guys we encountered were more likely to leave thier wounded on the battle fielf, knowing that we were mandated to give them treatment.

FMJ sucks against a guy wearing a glorified bath robe.
 
Amd6547, in response to your reply mentioning the Hague convention I've have done some light reading. History fascinates me so it was enjoyable. With regards to the Hague convention and its lasting effects upon our military's weapons there are certain points which make it a non-issue for today's wars (plural to include our recent time in Iraq). First of all, the US voluntarily adopted those rules which means we could volunteer to abandon them. Secondly, the rules as written applied to members of the armed forces of nations at war. We are not fighting the military of another nation. We are fighting terrorists which are not included in, party to, covered by, nor in compliance with the Hague convention. With that said the Hague convention and the rules it set forth over a hundred years ago have no bearing or authority over what is happening today. As far as "hippies"...no obviously they were not yet in existence. I'll have to ask for a pass for playing fast and loose with the descriptor on that one. Its a term I use often to describe certain types of people.
Now the caveat here is that I found my info on the web. I tied to glean through the garbage and find valuable bits. Don't bite my head off if its wrong. I learned something along the way but I didn't study like I was writing a research paper.
 
Why I didn't like 5.56 when I was in the Army...

1. Having grown up with .30-06 deer rifles...the M16A2 felt like a Nerf toy.
2. 5.56/.223 is illegal for deer in at least 48 states...Adult Whitetail deer & adult humans tend to weigh about the same (90-350 pounds).
3. Having seen a deer get up and run away from a .270 thru the lungs didn't give me any confidence in the 5.56's performance.
4. It is a step up from .22WMR, but most definitely a step down from .308/7.62
5. Pencil-thin barrel means POI changes as it heats up...sometimes drastically.
6. The M60E3 was WAY more fun :)
7. Yep, it'll kill a Panamanian (or anyone else) stone dead if you hit 'em in the right spots...but when that bunghole is shooting at ya with an AK,
you ain't that precise because you are trying to find cover to shoot from...its a matter of Center Mass...instead of precision shooting.
In the case of center mass...I want Big Freekin Holes in the Other Guy that he can't get back up from...
screw that 5.56 "wounding is more logistically important" crap...what is important to me is bringing the Squad home alive & well.

And that's why I didn't like 5.56 :)

Of course now, I like it as a lightweight coyote killer...which is about the biggest critter its useful on...or legal on.
And my retired Marine Wifey...likes it because she's had 2 right shoulder rebuild surgeries, and the low recoil is handle-able.
5.56/.223 is also a much better home defense round than .22LR or 9mm, so hey, it ain't all bad...
So the Wifey will whip out her Hello Kitty AR-15...and I'll whip out my Camo AR-10, and we'll both be happy putting holes in Bad Guys.
We'll let the ME decide who killed which BG with what round first ;)
 
I used an M-16 for much of 1968-1969, fired one in the Reserves 1976-1998, haven't touched one since, you could give me one, but I won't buy one. It seems to me the M-16/M-4 and its ammunition has been a work in progress even since its adoption, every conflict reveals new shortcomings and deficiencies. Much the same way the M-1 Carbine really didn't perform as well as was expected. Using JSP ammunition gives us civilians an advantage our military personnel must forgo of course. And as for renouncing the Hague Conventions on the grounds that we are fighting "terrorists" and not legally recognized armed forces-we don't even want to THINK about opening that Pandora's Box.
 
"it got me thinking that my whole "coming chaos" strategy is extremely flawed."

Are we talking zombies? If so, 12 gauge stops 'em dead-er in their tracks. However, if you are talking WROL, well that's game over dude! No amount of ammo of any kind will make any difference. Wal Mart and McDonald's will be closed and we will all be doomed...
 
It's worth remembering that the Russians were so impressed by the performance of the 5.56 in Vietnam that they developed their own version of it.
I can do that with a .22lr just as easily as .223/5.56...
Click to expand...
The performance level between the .22LR and the 5.56 is tremendous. Any research at all into the terminal ballistics of the two rounds should be sufficiently convincing that the comparison is completely unreasonable.

From the Firearms Tactical website.

M193.jpg

M855.jpg

22LR%2037gr%20HP%20Wound%20Profile.jpg

22LR%2040gr%20RNL.jpg
 
Nothing like a Caliber War discussion, and when they are civil and courteous they can be entertaining and informative. My opinion for the $.02 that it's worth is that 7MM seems to be the minimum caliber in a "standard" rifle that combines long range accuracy with adequate stopping power, the Italians and Japanse both found their 6.5MM cartridges wanting, in this country the 6MM Lee Navy had a short service life. The Soviets developed the AK and SKS and their cartridge as a result of encountering the German "assault rifles"
in 7.92kurz, both nations developed a shorter round but kept with the .30 caliber and a bullet of adequate weight.
 
If somebody is entering your home and you have family living in it, why the hell would you want to shoot a truckload full of bullets capable of going through sheet rock and injuring your loved ones. This is why I have a 12 ga ready to go next to the .45 in the nightstand drawer.
 
gunsgongcrazy said:
This is why I have a 12 ga ready to go next to the .45 in the nightstand drawer.
Click to expand...
You must not realize that both of your choices are as likely to over-penetrate as a poorly chosen 5.56/223 round? As much as I wished I were, I am no expert but my opinion is that your choice should be based on bullet design & construction and power factor; not necessarily caliber.
 
There seem to be a lot of people on the Forum living in the mountains of Afghanistan. Either that or there are some seriously paranoid people in this world.

I doubt anyone here is going to have there house attacked by a dozen armed militants one night.

Or has the apocalypse started and no ones warned me.
 
Most any person attempting to grab your possessions etc. will not be wering body armor and most will not have a burning desire to become a martyr. The 5.56 in either FMJ, Ballistic tip, or hallow point will definitely discourage most and I do say most aggressors. First off you won't likely be making shots in excess of 100 yards if that around your typical sub division, or tract home. If you need to do so the 6.8SPCII, or .308 would fill the bill nicely.

Secondly as stated before most marauders aren't looking to get shot at in the first place. They will likely be looking for homes without dogs and residents that are armed and determined to ue their weapons in defense of their family/property.

The 22LR has a place in the gun safe for the taking of small game. Just as the the .300 WM, or .338 WinMag have a place for taking larger game. Self defense weapons are the same. Short range easy to maneuver with carbines and longer range large caliber rifles each own a place of honor depending upon their need and use.

Th military is restricted to using FMJ... you're not. I keep adequate quantities of large and small caliber ammo to feed my various guns. If you have a case of 5.56 it will take some time to shoot through it all unless you're fending off a large army, you're supplying your neighbors with ammo, or you spray and pray rather than taking well aimed shots.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top