Where do you get 22lr magazine that will hold 5500 rounds? or a .223 mag that will hold 1000? Availible ammo on hand does not do anything for you if you only have a 5 round mag in your gun when SHTF.. make sense? Also, when you preform the milk jug water penatration test, test it with a couple old shirts and a sweeter (bad guy attire) around the milk jug. Youd be amazed as to how lossy wraped clothing will soak up alot of energy. Expecialy from a poor penatrating round like the 22lr bullet. I also think a bad guy with bad intentions, ampped up on addrenalin will soak up a couple rounds of 22lr and continue fighting. I dont think that he could soak up much high velocity expanding/frangible 223 ammo and keep going. Id rather have more gun than i need, but i also have a family with three small kids in a small house. That changes things again, but being that that is not the origonal question, we'll leave it at that.
Concerned about lethality of .223/5.56
- Thread starter Te Anau
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Your reasoning here is poor.
You might also consider loading your magazines with Federal ammo loaded with 60gr Nosler Partitions or Cor Bon ammo loaded with a 62gr Barnes Triple-shock X bullet. The point being almost any quality hunting bullet or hollow point bullet should work better than a FMJ in a defensive situation. But even a FMJ should out perform a .22lr.
Stu
Stu
I think the reasoning is fine. Its the conclusion I think is in error.
First off, there is no magic bullet. Nothing is a 100% one shot stopper 100% of the time.
Consider the premise. "Coming troubles..." (a nice way of skirting the forum rule about TEOTWAWKI discussions) but one that could be allowed, if you consider what has happened in riots and natural disasters...
Ok, now, the OP is looking at "hits needed to turn attacker(s) away from his home". Thats fine. But it ignores the effect of the hits, other than turning away an attacker. Or, rather, assumes all hits to be equal, based on the TV telling us about how multiple hits with the 5.56mm are needed. And, "turning away" is subtly different from "stopping" an attacker.
One should also consider the motivation of the attackers. Current combat is against religious fanatics, the majority of whom suscribe to the idea that death in battle against their enemies is a good thing. They don't want to stop, they want to kill the enemy, and/or die gloriously doing so.
Someone(s) attacking your home in the "coming troubles" won't be doing it for that reason. They'll be doing it to get something you have. Food, valuables, arms, or possibly even shelter. They will not be attaking your home seeking death in battle. The things they want will also be had in other places, so there is a high probability that after being shot (with anything) or even shot at, they will turn away and look for easier pickings.
To me, that's a significant difference. Someone getting hit 3-5 times (multiple whatever) with a .22LR might not be physically stopped but the odds are high that it will make an impression. And it will make an impression on those with them.
But, this is a double edged sword. Odds are high that they will turn away, but there is also a risk that not doing significant damage with a round or two will enrage the group and intensify their will to attack. (OMG they shot Kenny! You B*********! Get "EM!, etc...)
You can have a lot more ammo for the same cost with a .22LR, and you can trust that lots of hits with it will do the job. But be prepared for the real world to have a different opinion.
Go ahead and stock up on .22LR (and guns, because A) having only one gun is a point failure source) and B) grabbing a second loaded gun is often faster than reloading.) Use it to turn away attackers. Just be prepared with something else when/if it fails.
First off, there is no magic bullet. Nothing is a 100% one shot stopper 100% of the time.
Consider the premise. "Coming troubles..." (a nice way of skirting the forum rule about TEOTWAWKI discussions) but one that could be allowed, if you consider what has happened in riots and natural disasters...
Ok, now, the OP is looking at "hits needed to turn attacker(s) away from his home". Thats fine. But it ignores the effect of the hits, other than turning away an attacker. Or, rather, assumes all hits to be equal, based on the TV telling us about how multiple hits with the 5.56mm are needed. And, "turning away" is subtly different from "stopping" an attacker.
One should also consider the motivation of the attackers. Current combat is against religious fanatics, the majority of whom suscribe to the idea that death in battle against their enemies is a good thing. They don't want to stop, they want to kill the enemy, and/or die gloriously doing so.
Someone(s) attacking your home in the "coming troubles" won't be doing it for that reason. They'll be doing it to get something you have. Food, valuables, arms, or possibly even shelter. They will not be attaking your home seeking death in battle. The things they want will also be had in other places, so there is a high probability that after being shot (with anything) or even shot at, they will turn away and look for easier pickings.
To me, that's a significant difference. Someone getting hit 3-5 times (multiple whatever) with a .22LR might not be physically stopped but the odds are high that it will make an impression. And it will make an impression on those with them.
But, this is a double edged sword. Odds are high that they will turn away, but there is also a risk that not doing significant damage with a round or two will enrage the group and intensify their will to attack. (OMG they shot Kenny! You B*********! Get "EM!, etc...)
You can have a lot more ammo for the same cost with a .22LR, and you can trust that lots of hits with it will do the job. But be prepared for the real world to have a different opinion.
Go ahead and stock up on .22LR (and guns, because A) having only one gun is a point failure source) and B) grabbing a second loaded gun is often faster than reloading.) Use it to turn away attackers. Just be prepared with something else when/if it fails.
D), Personally close range I'm happy with a 40 caliber carbine etc,or the 223 out to 200-300 yards, beyond that, I would want a 6mm or 308. Like the man said no gun fits all.Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
To clarify, .223 is quite lethal when it hits the targets it needs to hit. Multiple shots aren't fired because .223 didn't do enough damage. Multiple shots are fired because .223 didn't hit a critical area. .22LR is lighter and slower than your typical .223 round, it is more likely to be stopped by cover, not penetrate enough or be deflected.
The basic reasoning here assumes that volume of fire is sufficient to overcome .22LRs shortcomings in range, power, and penetration. I can't think of too many circumstances where that assumption will pan out - and that isn't even considering the wisdom of the underlying assumptions regarding ammo consumption and likelihood of surviving enough gunfights to go black on 1000 rounds of .223 as an individual.
The basic reasoning here assumes that volume of fire is sufficient to overcome .22LRs shortcomings in range, power, and penetration. I can't think of too many circumstances where that assumption will pan out - and that isn't even considering the wisdom of the underlying assumptions regarding ammo consumption and likelihood of surviving enough gunfights to go black on 1000 rounds of .223 as an individual.
If you are going to use a .22lr Home Defense weapon, there's only ONE that qualifies at all...a Calico M-110 pistol w/ 100-rds per mag capacity.
At least that way, you can throw enough lead downrange to seriously screw up some bad guys.
And you should practice firing as fast as Jerry Miculek, so that the amount you send leaves fast enough in mass amounts to do the job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisHfKj2JiI
At least that way, you can throw enough lead downrange to seriously screw up some bad guys.
And you should practice firing as fast as Jerry Miculek, so that the amount you send leaves fast enough in mass amounts to do the job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisHfKj2JiI
Double Naught Spy
New member
I got to hand it to you, Big Shrek, you have suggested Calico guns as being the answer to various problems in 17 different threads, often with pics.
Is there anything the Calico can't do?
Is there anything the Calico can't do?
The biggest problem with the current issue 5.56 (SS109/M855) is it was designed to be stable to longer ranges and be able to penetrate the side of a steel helmet at 600 meters.
That performance is all well and good against a well fed and equipped military (more layers and mass to work against), but testing has revealed that when fired from shorter barrels or from M16 at extended range the reduced velocity means that the bullets tendency to yaw and fragment is also significantly reduced happening at 7 - 10 inches of penetration versus (IIRC) about 3 -4 inches and in the case of a hit to an extremity or a com hit to lightly built potentially malnourished individual the bullet may be already be on the way out the other side before it begins to yaw.
The MK262 has better performance even in the M4, but then you are giving up hard target penetration.
In the hands of a private individual who has no need to worry about the Hague Conventions or the need to worry about costs in the Millions of dollars when purchasing ammunition the 5.56 ammunition selection can be matched to their potential need/weapon/lethal performance.
5.56 versus .22LR? I will take the 5.56 any day.
That performance is all well and good against a well fed and equipped military (more layers and mass to work against), but testing has revealed that when fired from shorter barrels or from M16 at extended range the reduced velocity means that the bullets tendency to yaw and fragment is also significantly reduced happening at 7 - 10 inches of penetration versus (IIRC) about 3 -4 inches and in the case of a hit to an extremity or a com hit to lightly built potentially malnourished individual the bullet may be already be on the way out the other side before it begins to yaw.
The MK262 has better performance even in the M4, but then you are giving up hard target penetration.
In the hands of a private individual who has no need to worry about the Hague Conventions or the need to worry about costs in the Millions of dollars when purchasing ammunition the 5.56 ammunition selection can be matched to their potential need/weapon/lethal performance.
5.56 versus .22LR? I will take the 5.56 any day.
I thought of this thread today when I was out shooting a few rounds in the north pasture. I moved one of my 1" solid steel rectangles down there and leaned it against a tree. It's like 3 feet by 2 feet. Amazingly heavy. Can just barely lift it enough to hook onto the tailgate of the pickup so that I can load it. Thick, heavy steel.
I then used it for some .22 practice. Started nearly 100 yards away and then closed in. Fired 40 rounds. Each round made a little flower of splashed lead. Felt with your finger, there isn't even the slightest impression. Still feels just as smooth as when I started.
Then went and got the Ruger SSR556. 16" barrel, obviously 5.56mm. 1-9" twist. I had put a Battle Comp 2.0 on it and hadn't checked it with live fire to see if the zero had changed or anything. I laid down at the 100 meter line and took a nice prone position. Fired three shots center mass. Could hear each one hitting the steel. Went down to check. Zero had moved. Now it is shooting a bit to the left. I'll have to fix that.
I was using Guat M193. Milspec 55 grain FMJ. No penetrator. The three rounds were in a nice tight triangle and I was pleased with that since I was just using the stock Troy iron sights. But it always surprises me just how much force M193 hits with. Each hole was a little steel crater. Little splash lip that sticks out from the front. And an actual hole drilled into that tough railroad steel. Probably about as deep as the eraser on a pencil. Nowhere near enough to totally penetrate but darn serious performance against that target.
If a bad guy is hiding behind a car or other normal urban objects, he's only found concealment, not cover. It would take something like 1" steel to actually be safe from milspec 5.56 and that's not seen often in daily life.
Anyway, as I said, I thought of this thread. About the humorous idea that somehow you can even say 5.56 and .22 LR in the same sentence. Or that people really think 5.56 is underpowered. I've shot that same plate with my FAL and using Nato spec 7.62 NATO. It doesn't go through either. Gives about the same depth of penetration, just a wider crater. I suppose people hold a little 5.56 in their hand and think it's underpowered. I've fired commercial .223 FMJ that was rather weak but the real M193 is a hot round that just smacks the living crap out of things!
I finished a crippled deer on my property that some poacher had hurt and then lost. Had to take a head shot with my 16" M4 and M193. I was just amazed at the damage. Pieces of skull flew through the air. The jaw came unhinged on one side. Nasty!
Gregg
I then used it for some .22 practice. Started nearly 100 yards away and then closed in. Fired 40 rounds. Each round made a little flower of splashed lead. Felt with your finger, there isn't even the slightest impression. Still feels just as smooth as when I started.
Then went and got the Ruger SSR556. 16" barrel, obviously 5.56mm. 1-9" twist. I had put a Battle Comp 2.0 on it and hadn't checked it with live fire to see if the zero had changed or anything. I laid down at the 100 meter line and took a nice prone position. Fired three shots center mass. Could hear each one hitting the steel. Went down to check. Zero had moved. Now it is shooting a bit to the left. I'll have to fix that.
I was using Guat M193. Milspec 55 grain FMJ. No penetrator. The three rounds were in a nice tight triangle and I was pleased with that since I was just using the stock Troy iron sights. But it always surprises me just how much force M193 hits with. Each hole was a little steel crater. Little splash lip that sticks out from the front. And an actual hole drilled into that tough railroad steel. Probably about as deep as the eraser on a pencil. Nowhere near enough to totally penetrate but darn serious performance against that target.
If a bad guy is hiding behind a car or other normal urban objects, he's only found concealment, not cover. It would take something like 1" steel to actually be safe from milspec 5.56 and that's not seen often in daily life.
Anyway, as I said, I thought of this thread. About the humorous idea that somehow you can even say 5.56 and .22 LR in the same sentence. Or that people really think 5.56 is underpowered. I've shot that same plate with my FAL and using Nato spec 7.62 NATO. It doesn't go through either. Gives about the same depth of penetration, just a wider crater. I suppose people hold a little 5.56 in their hand and think it's underpowered. I've fired commercial .223 FMJ that was rather weak but the real M193 is a hot round that just smacks the living crap out of things!
I finished a crippled deer on my property that some poacher had hurt and then lost. Had to take a head shot with my 16" M4 and M193. I was just amazed at the damage. Pieces of skull flew through the air. The jaw came unhinged on one side. Nasty!
Gregg
As noted,US troops are limited to FMJ ammunition per the Geneva and Hague Conventions. Also as noted penetration is valued over stopping power per se.
I am not a fan of the 5.56 but it is a popular enough round that find a good JSP round should be no problem, as far as relying on a 22LR not my first choice but beats fists, feet and foul language.
I am not a fan of the 5.56 but it is a popular enough round that find a good JSP round should be no problem, as far as relying on a 22LR not my first choice but beats fists, feet and foul language.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Given the mess that 50- and 55-grain bullets make inside a coyote, I figure they'd do just as good in a defensive situation. From a tactical standpoint, since I'm shooting to stop, I'd keep on shooting until there is indeed a stop to hostility. One time? Five times? What difference does it make?
As far as a .22 rimfire, I figure that improving sinus drainage or doing cataract surgery with one would tend to create an attitude adjustment on the part of a Bad Guy. Wouldn't be my first choice, of course, but better than a loud scream, for sure.
As far as a .22 rimfire, I figure that improving sinus drainage or doing cataract surgery with one would tend to create an attitude adjustment on the part of a Bad Guy. Wouldn't be my first choice, of course, but better than a loud scream, for sure.
I believe that the fmj ammo used by the military serves a good purpose. If you kill a man, you take one man out of the fight, if you wound him, you take several out of the fight. Dragging him out of the way of the firefight, administering first aid, etc. Personally, I load 55gr PSP ammo and have little doubt about it's "lethality".
Having seen its effectiveness first hand in combat, I can tell yoou that it works pretty well. It shatters bones and makes really ugly chest wounds. Sure, not all the time every time, but regularly enough that we thought it was magical. Sure, some guys that are hit will keep coming, but they fall down pretty quick.
I meant to cover this in my previous post ...but she who must be obeyed...required my presence... the older M193 ball, with it's 55 grain FMJ actually was quite lethal and had a reliable tendency to tumble and fragment at various ranges, though it was considered inhumane by some authorities and if rumors were to be believed, it's further use by the US and widespread acceptance by NATO was going to be challenged under the Hague Conventions.
Those concerns and the penetration and stability at longer ranges in part lead to it being dropped.
As far as the wounding ability of FMJ, if the current bullet as used fails to disable the BG and he has the ability to remove himself from the battle field relatively unaided, as has been indicated in the studies done with the current round, then you have only minimally impacted the enemies fighting force.
With the minimal impact the wound might have on the BG, they could be up and fighting in considerably less time than otherwise, even without a well established medical system.
Those concerns and the penetration and stability at longer ranges in part lead to it being dropped.
As far as the wounding ability of FMJ, if the current bullet as used fails to disable the BG and he has the ability to remove himself from the battle field relatively unaided, as has been indicated in the studies done with the current round, then you have only minimally impacted the enemies fighting force.
With the minimal impact the wound might have on the BG, they could be up and fighting in considerably less time than otherwise, even without a well established medical system.
Te Anau said:
If someone is rushing your home in a "chaos" scenario you will want something more lethal than .22lr as they will probably not be alone and you want to disable each of them with a single shot if possible. .22lr to the right location will do the job, but .223 is going to be much more effective if you don't hit something entirely vital. Also don't forget you won't be engaging people effectively at more than about 100 yards with the .22lr. So if they come at you with .308 or .223 and you are using .22lr they can just back off and snipe you, if they are good enough.
Honestly, if you end up needing more than about 1000 rounds of .223 for defense in that situation then you are probably screwed anyway. If you really think you could go through 1000 rounds defending your home without getting seriously injured or killed at some point in return fire, you are deluding yourself. The real reason you want more than 1000 rounds of .223 in that situation is for hunting deer, hog, goat, or even feral cattle.
Preparing for "coming chaos" is a multi-tiered process. When it comes to firearms you want a Handgun (portable defense, 9mm to save money on ammo), 12ga Shotgun (bird hunting), .223+ Rifle (medium game), and a .22lr rifle (small game). Of course all these double as defensive firearms as well, with the rifle being preferred for that purpose much of the time. So of course you want to stock up on .22lr, but you also want .223, 9mm, a bunch of bird shot, and a little slug and buckshot. Also, if you ever do run out of .223 the .22lr can work even for deer with good shot placement, so you are still okay for the long term with that.
So you are right and wrong. Stock up on a good, but not excessive, amount of .223, but also get 10 times as much .22lr as well.
I'm not restricted to FMJ should I need to use a 223 for protection. Most of what I load are varmint type bullets which are wicked when they hit. In the unlikely case of a threat wearing body armor, I have a supply of green tip steel core so soften them up and a goodly pile of standard 55grain FMJ for in between targets.
For the heavy duty stuff, I'll go to a bigger caliber. I bought into the AR platform and have used it enough to know what it works on and what it won't.
For the heavy duty stuff, I'll go to a bigger caliber. I bought into the AR platform and have used it enough to know what it works on and what it won't.
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