Concerned about lethality of .223/5.56

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I found this on an AR15 website...posted by a medical professional who was working when someone was brought into the hospital who had been shot accidentally by an AR...the wound sounds pretty darn vicious to me...I wouldn't want to be in the path of .223/5.56

"First of all, he was obviously in a bad way (duhhh) and needed extensive treatment of all sorts, including ortho surgery for shattered ribs, wound care, a chest tube to drain the blood from his chest cavity and he had to be placed on a ventilator (the latter two being my job)
Second, let me describe his wound: The entry wound was small and neat, with very minor signs of cauterization from the hot bullet. The bullet immediately struck the rib underneath, which left a small entry hole but completely shattered and broke the rib in half, and splintered about 2 inches of rib completely beyond repair, leaving both ends of the rib ragged and sharp. The bullet continued on, explosively bursting and tearing the upper and middle lobes of the lung. Due to the "temporary shock cavity" we all read so much about, there was marked shearing trauma in a spherical area extending from the bullets presumed path- The external skin on his right flank under his arm was visibly distended and bruised from this shock trauma. Internally, his mediastinum (the sac in your center chest containing your heart and great vessels) was affected, his pericardial sac leaking fluid into his chest, again due to shock trauma and tearing rather than direct wounding. Luckily for him, his heart was not injured or bleeding. However, we had to surgically-remove a major portion of his right lung because of the marked destruction of the tissue (in a word: couldn't just patch the balloon!) The bullet continued on its merry way through him, luckily passing between his posterior ribs, although by now it was tumbling, so it tore through his intercostal (between ribs) muscles and left an UGLY, asymmetrical, bruised, torn exit wound roughly 2.5 inches wide that will probably never heal correctly. The spherical shock damage I described also surrounded the wound somewhat, having stretched out his ribcage and the outer skin as well."
 
You know, that post reminds me of a guy I was in training with one time for 3 weeks. A very knowledgeable guy regarding firearms, reloading, hunting and gunshot trauma. He insisted there was no such thing as a damage from temporary stretch cavities except in the liver (which does not stretch). He would argue till he turned blue that tissues could stretch all to hell and back and just snap back into place. I have no idea what set him on the course of not being able to accept the obvious, but something did and there was no deviation in his thought process.
 
I would distinguish between lethality and stopping power, or perhaps discouraging power to coin a new phrase (All Rights Reserved). If you do shoot someone attacking your house in a SHTF scenario no one will be dialling 911 for the rescue squad, the downed individual will not be screaming "MEDIC!" and I doubt his pals will be risking life and limb to drag him out of the line of fire.
 
I just want you to realize two things so you don't do something you later regret.

1. Both 12ga and .45 will go through sheet rock and still have the potential to be lethal to someone on the other side. Sheet rock is a very insubstantial barrier. Please do not do any shooting inside your home based on the assumption that sheet rock or even a single interior wall will stop bullets; because it usually will not.

2. If you choose an ammunition type that won't reliably penetrate two 5/8" sheets of drywall, you should realize it has very little chance of physically forcing an attacker to stop what they are doing. It might scare an attacker away or cause them pain; but it is unlikely to shut them down physiologically.
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12ga with buckshot perhaps....a 12ga with salt rock or a bean bag...not a chance. It is the noise of the lock and load that hopefully works in the first place as a deterant
As far as the .45, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.
 
Just got through doing some documenation on an iraq combat veteran. He took 3 hits, one to the abdomen. I don't know what weapon, but regardless, the trauma he went through was incredible. It even shattered his tailbone.

It sure as hell wasn't a 30-06, it was probably 7.62 commie, and all things considered, I will always believe that the 5.56 will create at least as much damage as the 7.62 will, or even more.

The spleen is soft tissue, as is the pancreas, the gall bladder is simply a membrane, the liver will rip, a pile of intestines can be perforated in a whole bunch of places by small fragments, lungs can be completely collapsed by temporary cavity.

No matter where you hit someone in the thoracic cavity, you stand the chance of damaging organs terribly, just by hydrostatic shock, and when that thing rolls and breaks up (if it does) you will create bleeding like you never would have seen 100 years ago.

A bullet wound from black powder cartridges was nothing compared to what the hell these things do. There was no such thing as hydrostatic shock with a cap and ball, or even a colt. It takes a major trauma surgery to survive a body cavity hit from one of those things.

That soldier had a colostomy for several years before he was healed up enough that they could hook his plumbing back up.

The BS stories about those bullets blowing through people like a screwdriver blade will be either unusual fluke happenings, or outright lies. The 5.56 is not stable enough to do it, and no matter what happens, that spitzer point will go off balance because of its nature. the point will start to slew because of any interference with a straight path, and when that happens, the tail end will instantly start penetrating better than the lightweight tip will, turning it backwards.

At one time, the british started loading wooden plugs in the tip of FMJ spitzer bullets to create this very phenomenon. Base heavy bullets that will turn on impact.

I'd love it if we could have some autopsy photos that show just what a mess those things leave behind. It's not just a neat, clean hole.
 
12ga with buckshot perhaps....a 12ga with salt rock or a bean bag...not a chance. It is the noise of the lock and load that hopefully works in the first place as a deterant.
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You're right about the penetration capability of bean bags and rock salt (or rather the lack, thereof), but that's sort of missing the larger point.

The point is that projectiles that aren't likely to be lethal, are still unlikely to be lethal after they go through an interior wall. Projectiles likely to be lethal are still likely to be lethal after they go through an interior wall. Interior walls are pretty flimsy barriers.
 
gunsgongcrazy said:
a 12ga with salt rock or a bean bag...not a chance. It is the noise of the lock and load that hopefully works in the first place as a deterant
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You are correct that these are unlikely to penetrate a common interior wall. They are also unlikely to physiologically stop someone. You may also want to familiarize yourself with your state laws since both may be regarded the same as lethal force from a legal perspective. You probably don't want to be in a situation where you are facing an immediate threat of death or serious injury and all you've got is rock salt or a bean bag. You'll notice police do not use rock salt at all and when they use less lethal munitions, the officer will be wearing body armor, have been specially trained in the use of such ammo, and backed by another officer ready to use lethal force.

The flip side of that is both bean bags and rock salt can cause death or serious bodily injury. So at a minimum, I would get training on how to use them; because if you try to use them in a situation that doesn't warrant such force or use them in the wrong way (under the minimum distance for example), you could be facing serious liability.

So from my perspective, those rounds have limited utility for most civilians. If my life is in danger, I want something more effective than a bean bag. If my life is not in danger, then a 12ga is probably the wrong tool to be using - especially since I don't have training on bean bag rounds, body armor, or another person backing me up with lethal force.
 
The art of the rifle

To the original poster.
I believe that the show that got you thinking was flawed from it's delivery vs. what you are taking from it.
The art of the rifle (cartridge), defending your home and the art of war are all different things and strategies. You are on the right track to question a 5.56.
But this is apples to oranges to bananas.

I can't begin to read all the posts or links or argue a 22lr to a .223.



What started this is the effectiveness of a 5.56 on a TV show. IF memory serves me correctly, the 5.56 relaced the 30.06. No doubt a 30.06 IS more lethal.

Why would an army switch from a bigger, more lethal round to a smaller, less lethal round?

The gun:
-lighter
-holds more bullets

The bullet:
-the 5.56 shoots flatter and much farther
-ammo weighs less
-ammo takes up space

For an individual who wants to defend his home an intruder, maybe a 5.56 isn't what you want. I doubt you need to shoot 600 meters either but to your point, what caliber will better stop an attack. The easy answer is to just do what the military does. But are you trying to accomplish the same thing? Not at all. You aren't walking 20 miles with it and it would be hard to claim that you were defending your family from immenent threat from 1/2 a mile away.

Again, what is the advantage to injuring someone in war?
-an injured soldier on the field might talk another into trying a rescue them giving you the opportunity to take out more enemies.
-an injured soldier demoralizes the troops
-an injured soldier demoralizes public opinion on the war when he returns home
-an injured soldier depletes medical resources
-an injured soldier depletes the finances of the organization funding the war.

A dead soldier is cheap to bury and out of sight. It quickly becomes a statistic.


All of these have nothing to do with defending your home. In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the reasons why the military likes this round is a reason not to like it for home defense. It could get you sued, public opionion would work against you as they feel sympathy for the one you permanently disabled. It might hit something 300 yards away that you didn't know was there.

In am not anti-AR. I have one, I love it. It is not my first choice for home defense as it has potiential to go places I cannot see.

Back to you.

Don't let a defense gun pick you. Decide what is important to you and then find the gun that does it best.
 
I am putting in my .02, I am most comfortable with my .308 for longer and my .45 for close. My wife is more comfortable with her .223/5.56 and her 9mm, I feel you should use what you are most proficient with. I would probably drag a pump 12 GA with me if possible. Use what you like and can hit with, heck with what the "experts" say.

oilcan72
 
It is the noise of the lock and load that hopefully works in the first place as a deterant
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If I've said it once, I' said it one hundred times: The sound of a shotgun being racked is not some magical noise that makes people run away.




Also, this thread started because of a TV show. Anybody remember what people called the TV back in the day? The "idiot box"

Afraid your xm193 55gr FMJ isn't deadly enough? Buy better bullets. Gun stores have shelves full of hollow points, soft points, ballistic tips, open tip rear penetrating gee whiz wunder bullets.
 
Just to throw in my .02...

If, IF YOU are more comfortable using a .22LR than you are with a 5.56, THEN the .22LR will be more effective FOR YOU.

Being able to point and aim will always be more effective than a chuck and duck.

Therefore, if YOU can place hits on multiple targets coming from a spread formation and moving towards you on the double quick, with either the 5.56 or the .22LR, then the 5.56 would probably be better. But, if your accuracy and efficiency is better with the .22LR then that is the one to hang your hat on.

Also, the best defense is still having the best offense which to me his having a tactic of control outside your perimeter utilizing a strategy of stealth to evaluate threats and if necessary, take them out. The .22LR is definitely more stealthy, especially when properly equiped to help quiet it. Our military is currently evaluating multiple whisper type platforms right now...great for selective targets, get in and get out and causing a re-evaluation of tactic by the possible insurgent group.

From those that say the 5.56 is great because our Mil has used them for so long does not amount to more than a fart in a bag, cause there is nothing to compare it to. Being lighter does not necessarily make it a better platform, it just allows the weaker among us to not whine as much.

The strategy is much more important than the weapon.
 
Don't forget the ramps!

Willie: I'm 100% in agreement, however what many people don't consider is that the feed ramps on a lot of AR type rifles do not like some polymer tips or soft points. For bolt guns it's a non issue. Folks need to make a decision on a few loads, try out enough to make sure there won't be any feeding issues, and then stick with what works.
 
12ga with buckshot perhaps....a 12ga with salt rock or a bean bag...not a chance. It is the noise of the lock and load that hopefully works in the first place as a deterant
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A beanbag round is designed to be non-lethal. Want non-leathal effects why use a firearm?
"Salt Rock" is way to unreliable in preformance to be used for self defence.
And if you are counting on the "noise of the lock and load" to scare off the bad guy, then you are making a mistake. You might as well buy a rape whistle.

It is simple really. Buy some HP ammo for you .45 test it to make sure its reliable in your gun. Buy some #4 or heavier buckshot for you 12 gauge and sleep well at night.
 
Also, this thread started because of a TV show. Anybody remember what people called the TV back in the day? The "idiot box"
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:rolleyes:

From those that say the 5.56 is great because our Mil has used them for so long does not amount to more than a fart in a bag, cause there is nothing to compare it to. Being lighter does not necessarily make it a better platform, it just allows the weaker among us to not whine as much.
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:D
 
I don't understand, the performance of 5.56 at any range that a home defender might face is a non-issue.

If you can't hit a 12sqft target of meat without injuring your neighbours or others, Don't use a fire ARM.
 
5.56

It just seems like everyone is always compensating for the shortcomings of the round. For example--You can shoot a deer with it if you use a fast twist bbl and heavy bullets...And the military has all sorts of bbl lengths and twists and bullet weights...

Why doesn't the military just use 243's in the AR10...twice the power of the 223 and still no recoil?
 
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