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Concentricity , what seater die should I get ?
- Thread starter Metal god
- Start date
Well I hope it continues ontrack myself. I will be opening a new box of Lapua next week and am giving serious consideration into doing a annealed vs unannealed 5 reload test with 20 of them
I would be interested if I thought he could be fair and objective nut experience tells me he has already got his mind made up before he starts. It has something to do with a man that claims he is a reloader and then claims he can not be convinced the case does not lock onto the chamber when fired.
Going to the range. It almost always has to do with something I built. I want to know what the rifle likes. I load 120 rounds of 12 different loads with 12 different case head stamps that include new, formed, once fired military and commercial cases. After tumbling I insist on getting the cases back in the same box they came from.
And I understand about variables, what I want is a small group, for 10 shots a group that is not larger than a quarter works without flyers. And then someone else has to determine what the rifle likes so I load another 120 rounds of 12 different loads, They are a different bunch, they fire one shot and then zero the scope; after zeroing the scope they shoot the next 10 rounds of that group. They are better shots than and get smaller groups.
Same thing with rifles I purchase; I purchased a 1905 303 Ross for $80.00, there was nothing I could do to improve on the accuracy but there is something about the in-line pull of the bolt that bothers me and it is an ugly rifle. Out of curiosity I dropped a brass rod down the muzzle. When the rod hit the bolt face, the bolt flew open. the tool I was using is a tool I use to check for bent barrels. Had the barrel been bent the rod would have slowed down and or stopped if it had been bent enough to see. I was impressed with the accuracy.
F. Guffey
Hopefully there not home made .
Too late. I will tell you I never saw a tool seat a bullet straighter and with less effort. I do not have many weak moments but I almost had one when I finished that one. It was not that it was simple but reloaders would have a field day making insults.
Straight off the seater did not have a die body, and just for kicks I used a bottle capper instead of a press and then I used a bottle corker.
, I do not believe the presses qualified as in-line presses.
F. Guffey
@ CW like I say as long as it works don't mess with it. I am still not convinced seating dies really make a crap as far as concentricity and accuracy goes. I am using a .308 seating die to seat my .260's and getting very acceptable runout. I originally used it when I went from .308 to .260 figuring after barrel break in I would order a .260 seater but the .308 die worked so well I just kept on using it. Five years later if it works, don't mess with it. I do prefer the micrometer seating dies hands down and of the two brands I own I give the RCBS a nod over the Forster because of the bullet slot.
Getting .3 - .5 MOA accuracy with ammo seated with a seating die meant for bullets .04 diameter larger tells me that all that seater does is push the bullet down and the neck guides it in. I always like to do a light hand chamfer whether the case was trimmed or not, just to help the bullet get started and to prevent any jacket damage.
Getting .3 - .5 MOA accuracy with ammo seated with a seating die meant for bullets .04 diameter larger tells me that all that seater does is push the bullet down and the neck guides it in. I always like to do a light hand chamfer whether the case was trimmed or not, just to help the bullet get started and to prevent any jacket damage.
hounddawg
I trim every time, it's more of a clean up then a trim because I trim every firing . I may go overboard because I'm only shooting 30 rounds every range trip . I chamfer inside an out even use a smaller caliber brush wrapped with 0000 steel wool chucked up in a drill press to smooth out any rough areas , seating is like butter .
I trim every time, it's more of a clean up then a trim because I trim every firing . I may go overboard because I'm only shooting 30 rounds every range trip . I chamfer inside an out even use a smaller caliber brush wrapped with 0000 steel wool chucked up in a drill press to smooth out any rough areas , seating is like butter .
hounddawg
I tried the Imperial dry lube that's added to those beads , I found if your shooting the reloads in a short period of time then you might not see any difference but if you aren't there is a bonding effect between the brass and the copper . From using the wool only and dry lube only the seating was just as smooth , even wool and lube it felt the same . That's using the standard die where I'm not adjusting neck tension .
I tried the Imperial dry lube that's added to those beads , I found if your shooting the reloads in a short period of time then you might not see any difference but if you aren't there is a bonding effect between the brass and the copper . From using the wool only and dry lube only the seating was just as smooth , even wool and lube it felt the same . That's using the standard die where I'm not adjusting neck tension .
I try to always load and shoot the same week maybe that is why I saw no improvement. Anyway I tossed my old .260 cases today the primer pockets are loosening and I am testing a pretty hot load.
I bought 200 Lapua a few months back when I caught a good sale and needed to bump my order up. There is no better time to test or retest some methods to see what effect they have
I bought 200 Lapua a few months back when I caught a good sale and needed to bump my order up. There is no better time to test or retest some methods to see what effect they have
Hopefully there not home made .
Too late.
The seating die was of a different color, it does violated a rule or two when it comes to a seating die. But I have found nothing that does a better job of aligning the bullet with the case neck.
F. Guffey
So I've not been testing a whole lot on the die or the concentricity gauge but did just buy this do-hicky
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075P2V49L/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Once it gets here I'll start doing some test on runout with three different types of sizing dies . Standard Redding , Redding type S bushing and Body only with Lee collet neck die after . With and with out expander button where applicable .
The Sinclair will check the outside concentricity of the necks while the new do-hicky should be able to check the inside neck concentricity .
It will take a little while to do all the testing but I'll likely start a new thread once completed . Any ideas as to order order or ways to run these test to ensure consistency and credibility of the end result ?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075P2V49L/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Once it gets here I'll start doing some test on runout with three different types of sizing dies . Standard Redding , Redding type S bushing and Body only with Lee collet neck die after . With and with out expander button where applicable .
The Sinclair will check the outside concentricity of the necks while the new do-hicky should be able to check the inside neck concentricity .
It will take a little while to do all the testing but I'll likely start a new thread once completed . Any ideas as to order order or ways to run these test to ensure consistency and credibility of the end result ?
How much difference the seating die makes will depend in part on what other tools you have. The Redding Competition Seating Die I got in 30-06 back around the time they were introduced (1989 or 1990 or so) cut TIR down by a factor of 4 for me, as compared to the Redding standard seating die. But the press I was using for rifle loading then was not nearly as rigid or self-aligning as the Forster Co-ax press I usually use for precision rifle loading now.
So about all I can do by way of additional evidence for this is point you to the article by German Salazar comparing seating dies and showing actual targets with grouping improvement resulting from using the Redding Competition Seating die.
So about all I can do by way of additional evidence for this is point you to the article by German Salazar comparing seating dies and showing actual targets with grouping improvement resulting from using the Redding Competition Seating die.
I've not read the article yet but I don't think I'll notice a difference on target . Now that seems like I'm wasting my time then but I don't think so . I just don't have the rifles or the ability to shoot 1/4 moa or better on every group . If I can't do that then I doubt I'm going to see a difference on paper shooting 1/2 moa groups . The one thing I think I might see is a cumulative result . Meaning over time I may see less 3/4 moa groups while seeing more 1/2 moa groups .
Pointing out the press as a possible weak link in my testing is definitely something to consider . The coax press in not in my near future though . Although It's disappointing to think that If I had just bought the Coax and not the gauges and the seating die I might be better off . The die , die VLD seating stem and gauges total $270 , while the Coax is only $324
Pointing out the press as a possible weak link in my testing is definitely something to consider . The coax press in not in my near future though . Although It's disappointing to think that If I had just bought the Coax and not the gauges and the seating die I might be better off . The die , die VLD seating stem and gauges total $270 , while the Coax is only $324
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It depends very much on how far forward of the geometric center of its bearing surface your bullet's center of gravity is (in most pointed bullet designs the geometric center is behind of the CG). Depending on the bullet, the effect on groups can be anywhere from about 1/16 moa to 1 moa.
Anyway, I wouldn't buy a die to correct this first. i would obtain the means to measure runout first and just sort out some low runout cartridges from your current ammo. Fire, say, 10 each of the best and worst and see if your group sizes are different. If they are, you'll see some benefit to getting the cartridges straight.
Anyway, I wouldn't buy a die to correct this first. i would obtain the means to measure runout first and just sort out some low runout cartridges from your current ammo. Fire, say, 10 each of the best and worst and see if your group sizes are different. If they are, you'll see some benefit to getting the cartridges straight.
BeeShooter
New member
I use the same gauge and get the same runout on my cases. If my bullet has more than a .003 runout it's because the die is dirty most of the time. I've also used the wrong stem for a sharp pointed bullet. When I start seating a bullet, I apply just enough pressure to start a seat and then back off and spin case 180 degrees and finish seating. I have new unfired cases that runout on the Sinclair concentricity gauge at .008. The body is out of round but the head plane is true to the sholder's pitch and both are true to the center line of the neck. These cases will shoot perfect and when you take them, after firing, and check the runout it's back to .0015. - most of the time a cheap Lee die will seat a bullet almost perfect. I always full length and use, many times, a Hornady comp die with bushings to keep the same grip. Nothing fancy and I quit bumping and necking a long time ago. Just keep everything as close to the center line as possible.
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I separated a 70-ish count load I have that shoots right at 1moa by bullet runout . I loaded these 8 months ago well before I bought the comp seating die .
The load is
168gr smk
43gr IMR-4064
LC-10 cases
CCI-LR primers
COAL 2.805
Runout was
16 @ .0015 or better
20 @ .002
26 @ .003 to .004
14 @ .005 or worse .
I'll test and compare the .0015 to the .005+ next time out and see if I have the ability to shoot well enough to notice the difference on paper . If it's windy I'll do it at 100yds , if generally calm I do it at 200yds . I'll likely do two 7 shot strings with both . letting the barrel cool in between . The rifle was just cleaned so I'll need to do some fouling shots . I have a velocity test I need to do the same day and that will put 16rds down the pipe first then I'll shoot 4rds of the .003 to .004 loads for a total of 20 fouling shots before the test .
The load is
168gr smk
43gr IMR-4064
LC-10 cases
CCI-LR primers
COAL 2.805
Runout was
16 @ .0015 or better
20 @ .002
26 @ .003 to .004
14 @ .005 or worse .
I'll test and compare the .0015 to the .005+ next time out and see if I have the ability to shoot well enough to notice the difference on paper . If it's windy I'll do it at 100yds , if generally calm I do it at 200yds . I'll likely do two 7 shot strings with both . letting the barrel cool in between . The rifle was just cleaned so I'll need to do some fouling shots . I have a velocity test I need to do the same day and that will put 16rds down the pipe first then I'll shoot 4rds of the .003 to .004 loads for a total of 20 fouling shots before the test .
expander ball, to use or not
this thread has ventured into some pretty complicated areas, and my limited grey matter requires me to break things down to individual subject points of near dummy mode. My apologies, in advance.
If what I read and understand is correct, the use of an expander is only appropriate for other than a collet type neck die. Accordingly, an expander is required for full length and neck only dies, with or without bushings. Is that correct?
Or can one pass on the expander "IF" the bushing is appropriately dimensioned to size down the neck just enough to hold the bullet?
I'm so confused.......
this thread has ventured into some pretty complicated areas, and my limited grey matter requires me to break things down to individual subject points of near dummy mode. My apologies, in advance.
If what I read and understand is correct, the use of an expander is only appropriate for other than a collet type neck die. Accordingly, an expander is required for full length and neck only dies, with or without bushings. Is that correct?
Or can one pass on the expander "IF" the bushing is appropriately dimensioned to size down the neck just enough to hold the bullet?
I'm so confused.......
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