Concentricity , what seater die should I get ?

Sorry MetalGod somehow press flex got mixed in with concentricity earlier in the thread and I was replying to that.

But you have got me to wondering if you had a neck with uneven inside thickness would it cause runout on the bullet even if the neck itself was concentric. I don't get much runout anymore but I do a whole lot of case prep

Grats on the Redding, never used one of their seaters but if they are as good as their sizing dies you will have a winner
 
The combination that works for me is the standard RCBS F/L die , Redding Competition shellholder set of 5 for sizing and the Redding Competition Seating die for seating. Tried bushing dies , neck sizing , runout was horrible untill I went back to full sizing , runout averaged .001k, groups are tight and consistent.
 
Sorry MetalGod somehow press flex got mixed in with concentricity earlier in the thread and I was replying to that.
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I remember that now and is why I brought up the new press possibility . I agree with you that the sizing process locks everything in place and not likely going to bend the necks . How ever I've pulled my expander ball though a few none lubed necks that took quite a bit of force to pull it though . I'd think that feeling I felt could easily pull the neck out of alignment but that would be seen when testing the neck concentricity after sizing . Right now the few I've tested so far are pretty good so I don't think that's the issue for me although it could be for someone else .

cw308 , I was hoping you'd chime in . I knew you work with these products but did not remember the specifics other then you switching back to a standard FL-sizing die .


I went and measured my tip to ogive distance on a 175gr smk and the new Berger 200,20x bullets . The 175's are .662-ish long while the Berger 200.20x bullets are .844-ish . Almost 2 tenths seems way longer from tip to ogive o me .
 
Metal God
Thanks , lm always in , reading everything I can on reloading , if I can add to the conversation and possibly help I will . Today I had one of those a_ _ h_ _ e moments , cleaned the die and didn't adjust the expander shaft with the expander ball except for the pin .as I sized I blew out the primer pocket from the web , that was a first .The pin isn't attached , I decap first . I'm going to swap out the stem assembly from the neck die just to be safe . Can't stop kicking myself in the ass. Be Well.

Chris
 
Pull the expander button off and toss it in a drawer where it can do no harm. That will solve part of the problem right there. Depin with a universal also
 
hounddawg
Alot of the guys don't use the expander , for sure that problem wouldn't have happened but I don't neck turn and by using 3 different case manufacturer's the thickness isn't the same , I my case the expander works well as long as I do my part . I leave the shaft with alittle wiggle room to self center . I do deprimer first with a Universal decapper . I try to be careful an double check , this one got away from me , thought it was in position .

Chris
 
Honestly CW I was not replying to your post, I was referring to MG's post where he said

How ever I've pulled my expander ball though a few none lubed necks that took quite a bit of force to pull it though . I'd think that feeling I felt could easily pull the neck out of alignment but that would be seen when testing the neck concentricity after sizing .
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I did not read your post until after I had made mine.

After ten years of this stuff I am down to whatever works for you. Put ten woodworkers in a room with the same tools and same wood and ask them to build a box. Come back later and no two would be alike and all would be correct.
 
hounddawg , not sure if you were around here 3 or 4 years ago but I had a thread talking about a problem the Redding type S bushing dies have . The issue is and has been confirmed by Redding through email with me . If your chambers neck is generous and your neck needs to be sized down more then .008 . There is a good chance your necks will come out like an hour glass with the center actually being sized down MORE then the bushing size if you don't use the expander button .

EXAMPLE : left two cases with out expander the right two with expander used .

OU9u85.jpg


For a better look at what happens see this pic

yoVIFC.jpg


They are not as bad as they look , that is just good lighting to bring out the problem in the photo . You can barely see it with the naked eye . If I recall there was less then a .005 variance but still not good . I was getting very inconsistent bullet bold when I did not use the expander button .

Redding told me I need to size the cases in two separate .005 increments if I was not going to use the expander button . I just chose to use the expander . I did buy an extra bushing to test there theory and it did/does work , I just don't do it . For a very short time I neck sized the first .005 increment and deprimed at the same time then FL sized with the next sized bushing which worked but I stopped that process for reasons I don't even remember .

Here is a thread I started on another forum that has the Redding response posted in the OP . I thought I posted the same thing here but I guess I didn't .
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1120108

me from Redding in the link above said:
I have pasted below a quick explanation of how this can occur.
It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010". (your fired case .254 - .245 bushing = .009")
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I forgot all that or better said never think about it anymore , which makes me want to ask cw308 if he used to expander button when he used the bushing dies ? Maybe he was having the same problem and is why his runout was so bad using the bushing dies ?

Anyways that's why I must use the expander with my bushing die . I do have a nice standard Redding FL sizing die but it sizes the necks way down . Something like .008 more then my bushing die does . Resulting in my bullet sizing the neck back out as it's seated If I didn't use the expander . I'd think that would not be good for concentricity but maybe it's a great way to do it . I'll have to test that in the next couple days now that I have the gauge to do so .
 
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I remembered the thread as soon as you showed the photo. I should have jumped in on it to mention that with 30-06 fired in generous military chambers and to be resized for the Garand, I use a standard Redding die with a carbide expander button. Even with the carbide I still dip the case necks in a dry lube. The combination produces very low expanding resistance and I observe no appreciable neck runout. For 1000 yard 30-06 ammunition for my '03 or one of my other bolt rifles, though, I go to the extra trouble of sizing the neck with a Lee Collet Die and use a Redding body die for the rest. Two steps, but truly no neck runout that I can measure at all. If you haven't seen this old YouTube video, the maker demonstrates the Lee die for low runout and uses it in a fixed setup on a Forster Co-ax press.
 
I remembered the thread as soon as you showed the photo. I should have jumped in on it
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You did but I don't think it was here , It might have been over at accurate shooter forum or another one you're on . I remember us PM each other many times about this and you recommending trying different lubes and had me by hole gauges . I even measured the inside neck diameter while the case was still in the FL type s die to see when the deformation was happening .

I went through many ideas to figure out what was going on to include buying the body die and collet neck die and concluded that using the expander was my best option . Only because the mandrel on the collet die was to big resulting in very light bullet hold . I could push the bullet into the case with just my thumb after using the collet die .

It had turned into weeks of testing and buying and trying different things and quite frankly I gave up and just used the expander button to make it simple . I always intended to buy a smaller mandrel and give it another try but 3+ years have now past and I've yet to fire one cartridge I've loaded using my collet die . I think about it every time I see it but it's in a box I rarely open so , out of sight out of mind kinda a thing I guess .

EDIT : I found the thread here at TFL
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567609
 
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I was not aware of the hourglass effect, thanks for educating me.

After my last post I thought of a couple of instances where a bushing would be needed. Gas guns and range pickup may get dents in their necks.

My scope of knowledge is really pretty narrow. That is why I rarely have anything to add to a pistol, military rifle, or hunting related thread. Any posts I make are from the point of view of someone loading for target shooting with a target rifle.

That being said unless I have dented or deformed necks I see no purpose for a expander button. If I were to start using one I would polish it first

here are a couple of threads on the Lee collet

check out post 19 of this thread Metalgod

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lee-collet-die-experience.3885018/#post-36644901

post 53 of this thread is where I tested the Lee collet against the Redding S die, I can't find the spreadsheets where I recorded the original data in any folder

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lee-collet-die-or-redding-s-neck-sizer.3951119/page-3
 
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Metalgod
When I was trying the Redding bushing dies I used the expander and upgraded expander carbide ball , runout was still poor , even sizing down in two steps as instructions . My thinking is if the case neck diameter isn't true on the out side of the neck , when sizing without the expander it transfers that diameter to the inside and the bullet become the expander . Once I went back to the no frills standard RCBS full length sizing die with the expander ball , all the problems disappeared . Even using brass on the thick side the neck tension is no higher then .004 . I wet tumbel with SS Pins , tried dry lube inside the necks when seating , then no lube and last 0000 steel wool . All seated and shot the same with no difference .

Chrisl
 
Even using brass on the thick side the neck tension is no higher then .004 .
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How do you convert .004" interference fit to tensions? One member furnished a link to Redding that covered bushing dies. In 4 paragraphs they managed to get through the instructions without mentioning 'neck tension' or case head space.

In the past I have done a lot of crush fit 'stuff', I have used presses for the crush that measured in thousands of pounds, I have never found an effect application where I could throw 'tensions' around because I do not have a gage that measures tension in tensions.

F. Guffey
 
MG,

I remember that better now. The Lee mandrels frequently need to be spun in a drill while a little wet/dry is used to narrow them a thousandth or so.

One of the differences with squeezing the neck from the outside is you tend to center the inside of the neck rather than the outside. As a result, if your case necks haven't been turned to uniform thickness an indicator on the outside will see the uneven neck thickness as runout.

Regarding the carbide expander, mine is in a standard die, not a bushing die. Since I decap in a separate operation, I moved the expander stem up until the ball engages the neck before the neck is fully withdrawn from the die's neck area, forcing it to start straight. That may be a factor.

I forgot to mention I've also used my Sinclair mandrel die body and the appropriate mandrel to expand necks. Pushing the expander in is less prone to forcing the neck off-axis than pulling an expander through it from the inside is.
 
HD per link provided said:
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly
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I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean , is this not right ?

kqbv.jpg

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But after some practice I was really getting the hang of it

n1b5.jpg


Oh but wait there's more . I thought the way to get more bullet hold was to put more force on the press arm and squeeze the neck down on the mandrel more . WRONG !!!! As I put more and more pressure on the arm , all of a sudden I heard a pop-ching-clang and the press arm just collapsed and went slack :eek: . Turns out I blew the top of the collet die right off stripping out the threads on the cap :o When talking to Lee they said that's why they make the caps out of aluminum so they strip out rather then break the press , for smart guys like me :rolleyes: .

Hmm I wonder why I don't use the collet die haha ;)
 
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FGuffy - How do you convert .004" interference fit to tensions?
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1. measure the outside diameter of a new or resized case with no bullet

2. measure the outside diameter of the neck with a bullet seated

3. the difference is neck tension


that is the way Bryan Litz says to do it. If you have a better way then tell us how you do it
 
Unclenick
I'm indexing off the bullet just above the ogive , not the case neck because I don't true up the necks . I'm going to try your expander setup . What I'm getting from your post , you run a case up into the die , raise the stem and expander untill you feel contact with the bottom of the case neck . Correct? That may be a factor , what do you mean by that?

Chris
 
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