Concealed Handguns vs Orlando terrorism last night

[Koda94]

No, it isn't propaganda and you can't guarantee anything of the sort.

However, I do like the notion that you are saying that the CCW with the gun is a person who opted to hide in a crowded bathroom and not do anything first, then wait to become a hostage before acting. Interesting scenario. Of course, once they became hostages, most of the shooting was over except for the killing of Mateen by the cops.

I cant guarantee the outcome but it will make a difference. My point was that gun control proponents claim armed citizens are not qualified to defend themselves. I disagree.

that’s a good point about how I wrote the hostage scenario, it was random. But I also think its possible an armed citizen could take out the shooter in the mist of all the chaos too. I cant guarantee the outcome but I can guarantee they will make a difference.


I'll apologise in advance for my strong words in my comment above, I’m not saying anyone here is "anti-gun" but my point is that armed citizens are capable of making a difference. The other thing that stands out in this thread is just how much legislation has gone against us having the choice to exercise our Second Amendment right outside the home, and that is what the anti-gun proponents want.

 

[HiBC]

There is something else that seems to be overlooked.
Some say they would not be in a club at 2AM.Ok.No problem.Your son or daughter might be there.
I'm a comfortably Heterosexual male who has lived alone since 1991.For a lot of my working life,I worked nights.
And I typically worked alone,or at least in a situation that was task focused.Not a lot of human face time.
So,contrary to the judgemental opinion that "the primary activity in a club is consuming alchohol",I think not.The primary intent is pleasant socializing.
And when I would get off work at 11PM or Midnight,a bar or club open till 2AM is about the only option.
I am quite moderate and disciplined at limiting my consumption.I drink a lot of non-alchohol tonic with a lime.I assume I have a $10,000 bounty on my head if I am driving impaired,and I assume I WILL get caught.I have no alchohol violations.
Have you ever watched Cheers? Do you know the role the Pub plays in Brit social life?
Social relationships form in bars and clubs,the same as schools,churches,etc.
It is not a warehouse of nameless faces to walk away from,c'est la vie.
There are various levels of friendships.
Within the bounds of this forum,just words in a box, aren't there people you would stand up for?
I accept,some have proclaimed,"Hey,too bad for you.You can't take care of yourself,die" Thanks for telling me.The feeling is mutual.
But some of us would feel that if our local club were being shot up,its a lot like family and friends.
BTW,a dear old,salt of the earth,fine ,red blooded American Woman that I have grown to love is a Lesbian.She opened a bar,so her folks have a safe and comfortable place to go.
I helped do a little work remodeling.
I find it a nice,comfortable place to have a beer.Nothing weird goes on.Its just people.I am welcome,and treated very well.

Looking back at the Martin-Zimmerman incident,regardless of the bad outcome,IMO,Zimmerman was out of line for heading toward the confrontation,and he was playing wannabe something.I do not have that mindset,and find Zimmerman an embarrassment.

If I want to go to a bar or club for peaceful purposes,I'm going to go.
I reject the idea that I should not be there.
That is like saying if I do not want to be in a horrible car wreck,stay off the hiway.

In my scenario with Myrtle,the 59 yr old imaginary truck driver with a Shield,I gave her a 20 to 30 % chance,hypothetically,of hitting his back 3 out of 5,and me once for collateral damage.,followed by the bad guy turning around and killing Myrtle.

That brought sarcastic comments that Myrtle should be a Navy SEAL if she can make it that easy.
No.Myrltle was just one of us

At this point,I just accept that there are all kinds of people.

I'll do it my way.I'm going to try to keep my respect for that guy I see in the mirror.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I cant guarantee the outcome but it will make a difference.

Okay, so maybe things would have been better or maybe they would have turned out worse, but they would have been different. True enough.

CCW can make a difference, but it doesn't mean that they will make a difference or that the difference will necessarily be beneficial. We want to believe it will be, but that doesn't mean it will be.

Besides, at this point, we don't know if anybody in Pulse was carrying and just failed to act. For all we know, there could have been several people there that didn't do a darned thing.

There are CCWs at some shootings and they fail to make one iota of difference, such as John Parker at Umpqua Community College in Oregon in 2015. Parker was a veteran and opted NOT to confront the shooter despite being armed himself.

 

[Deaf Smith]

So what are you gonna do DNS?

Shoot, no shoot, run, hide, plead, die?

Keep in mind the road of life is paved with flattened squirrels who couldn’t make a decision!

All I can say for myself is when the balloon, as they say, goes up I hope I have the guts (and guns) to TRY to make a difference.

See we all are gonna die, the only question is when and how.

Deaf

 

[Koda94]

Okay, so maybe things would have been better or maybe they would have turned out worse, but they would have been different. True enough.

CCW can make a difference, but it doesn't mean that they will make a difference or that the difference will necessarily be beneficial. We want to believe it will be, but that doesn't mean it will be.

Besides, at this point, we don't know if anybody in Pulse was carrying and just failed to act. For all we know, there could have been several people there that didn't do a darned thing.

There are CCWs at some shootings and they fail to make one iota of difference, such as John Parker at Umpqua Community College in Oregon in 2015. Parker was a veteran and opted NOT to confront the shooter despite being armed himself.

I agree with that of course I was never saying that something couldn’t go wrong, just because there is a good guy with a gun doesn’t mean he will win the gunfight. But there has been some underlying sentiment in this thread that a good guy either isn’t qualified or couldn’t make a difference and honestly that’s quite disappointing on a gun forum and simply not true. I hope some gun control politician isn’t lurking on this thread. Its simply pure disappointing to me to see fellow gun rights advocates on a gun forum no less publicly speak that a lawfully armed citizen could not make a positive difference in such an event. They need to take and advanced defensive handgun training class and see how many people are taking their right seriously as well as how good they do in class there are many many qualified citizens that carry.

couple more points,
if a good guy inside Pulse was carrying they chose not to take action because it was against the law for them, in Florida, to carry in that location in the first place. Reality is based on their worthless life taking law, and in regards to CHL holders being more law abiding than most, I would bet nobody was carrying in club Pulse that night and I would bet at least one of them (there were about 300 in attendance?) had a Florida CHL.

I’m not going to go thru old news links so I could be wrong but I read the one CHL holder (that we know of) at Umpqua Community College that day was specifically told by school authorities to not engage the shooter and made the decision to abide by that advice. If true we all could read into that different ways but my take on it is he wanted to, or at least considered taking action or he wouldn’t have disclosed his weapon in the first place (against school policy he could get expelled and forfeit his tuition...). More empirical evidence that the idea of lawful concealed carry is vilified...

 

[K_Mac]

Deaf, I hope I have the courage to act responsibly as well. I have not had your experience as an armed security guard but have spent enough time in clubs as a young man to well understand the environment. I also know that a civilian using a gun inside a club is very different than an armed professional.

I think a designated person who is not drinking, rather than a complete ban is an idea that has merit and is worthy of discussion. Koda94 I understand your frustration that we all don't walk in lockstep. You don't like that many of us are not as confident as you that we could have heroically saved the day or made even a minor difference. My position is we don't know. I have been around long enough to know I am not ten feet tall and bullet proof. I have also been around long enough to know that if a fight is necessary, I'm all in. Do no judge those of us who don't beat our chests as cowards. I think pushing for carry in a bar is less important than figuring out how to deny access to weapons to those who shouldn't have them without violating our right to have them.

 

[Koda94]

K Mac, good reply I mostly agree except Ill clarify that ive never suggested it would be easy or heroic to engage a shooter, or to judge anyone to be a coward for choosing to flee instead of fight.... I certainly was not suggesting that.
It would be a pretty tough spot to be in fleeing might be your only choice, it also might not be a choice at all.

 

[Deaf Smith]

DNS, I'm a computer programmer... apparently since birth. Born Texican to.

Never been a guard, cop, soldier, spook, or bartender.

Deaf

 

[jetinteriorguy]

The law here in Virginia is weird concerning CCW in a bar or restaurant. You can carry as long as your not drinking, or you can drink and open carry. I choose to carry concealed and not drink. I'd like to think of myself as the hero type but I have no idea how I would react in reality until actually face with such a situation. I have acted heroically a couple times in my life and been responsible for saving other people's lives, but I don't know if that would translate into the same action in a shooting situation. There have been other times I should have acted heroically and didn't, and as I get older and more jaded I feel less and less like I would be a hero. As a young person I feel a lot of my actions weren't really heroism as much as training as a Boy Scout and later training as an EMT that caused me to act more heroically because the reaction just came automatically without any thought of danger to myself. Nowadays I'd have more of a tendency to think about and assess a situation before reacting to it.

 

[peggysue]

Interesting in current shooter training at schools you are trained to fight back. If these hundreds of patrons would have fought back the one lone wolf terrorist would have been stopped with less casualties.. Bottles, chairs,and tables make great weapons. You are not told to put your heads between your leg and pretend to be invisible.

FACT. Everyone in the club was an adult.

 

[Lohman446]

You don't like that many of us are not as confident as you that we could have heroically saved the day or made even a minor difference. My position is we don't know

When we allow this conversation to argue that we could have made a difference or accomplished nothing we create a false dichotomy in our own favor.

An armed response could have made things worse. The police used a controlled and considered response partially, it seems, on the belief there were bombs involved and negotiation may have been more likely to save lives. There was also a consideration of multiple suspects when the attacker eluded to snipers on the roofs. Even if we accept this was an active shooter situation and immediate response inside was necessary.... well some of you are far more comfortable in your skill set than I can envision. The chances of collateral damage in this situation was high. Right now the motive seems clear - radical Islam. Had you gotten in a gun battle with the attacker and wounded or killed three or four club patrons in the process before ineffectively being killed yourself would you be looked at as that hero or as an attacker? Would it cloud the conversation afterwards?

As others have said these were all adults with the ability to defend themselves who made the decision that active defense was not their best chance at survival in a bad situation. Considering a good number of people from the club survived I'm not certain we can declare that the decision was not accurate.

 

[rodfac]

One, just one well armed man, who kept his cool in the ensuing mayhem, and who made sure of his target, might well have saved dozens of lives. Our laws concerning concealed carry no longer fit the current level of violence against civilians.

Our police, underpaid and under staffed cannot prevent the lone wolf terrorists in our midst. It's way past time when we as a nation adopted the Israeli's attitude: an armed and trained citizenry, aware of the danger of a fanatic running amock, are the only practicable alternative.

Our current crop of politicians, of both parties, will not address the problem. Defense of our nation and ourselves, as well as our families is the true intent of the 2nd Amendment. Elections loom in the near future, and the choices are clear to those who are not head down in the sand. For ourselves, our families and our nation, VOTE. You all know who needs to find another line of work...VOTE them out!!!!

With no apologies, Rod

 

[Lohman446]

Maybe it is time that we, those who advocate for gun rights, start discussing another option in regards to legal concealed carry: a tiered concealed license system.

I have the "standard" MI concealed carry license. It really does not impose much in the way of limitations on me (the list is pretty long and includes establishments that primary profit is from alcohol sales to be consumed on premises, sports stadiums, schools, entertainment venues with seating capacity of 2500 people or more, places of worship (without written permission from that place of worship) and a handful of others). The vast majority of those do not apply to me and I live without carrying my firearm into church. The thing is the "training and qualification" requirements are pretty much a joke. Based on various responses in this thread we can also note, it seems, that I am of the group that is going to flee if doing so poses the best chance of survival*

There is another group who seems adamant in their training and qualifications and believe they should be allowed to carry in places that are otherwise restricted. Perhaps its time we, as a whole, advocate for a less restricted carry license that allows this but mandates further training and qualification AT LEAST EQUAL TO LAW ENFORCEMENT STANDARDS (and this is a pretty low bar I understand).


*Part of my argument based on this situation was the presence of, pretty exclusively, adults. If you start firing into a crowd of children I am, armed or unarmed, resisting.

 

[Indawind]

FACT. Everyone in the club was an adult.

Well put.

I do not carry a full capacity gun everyday to protect any of the people who have made the personal DECISION to not be able to protect themselves. I carry to protect me and mine, period. If you expect someone to ride to your rescue, please, call 911 and leave a note to tell me how that went for you. Now if in the act of protecting myself you come out of a bad situation then I guess it is your lucky day.

Taking the nightclub/alcohol angle out of this I wonder about the "average" CCW carrier's mindset. We have an active shooter situation. A person, or more with rifles, not a meth head with a J frame that wants your wallet and watch. People who are there to kill as many as they can and realize they will most likely not survive themselves. Is the "average CCW carrier" ready to kill the shooter? I am not talking pulling and yelling freeze like the "good guy" is supposed to do. I am talking about putting a round in the back of the head while the shooter is not focused on you. I am talking about HUNTING the killer in a way that keeps you out of their attention. There may only be one shot.

Having a pistol in a rifle fight is not someplace that has high odds in your favor if you come to the attention of the rifleman or their accomplice.

How many Mary and Bob type carriers have the mindset to go there?
I would think not too many.

 

[Sharkbite]

I also know that a civilian using a gun inside a club is very different than an armed professional.

This is one of the biggest fallacies it the shooting world. "He's a cop, so he can shoot BETTER then the armed civilian". What TOTAL B.S.

I have spent the better part of 3 decades carrying in hostile environments AND teaching both LE/Mil and cilvians. I do not see the avg LE as having even modest skills with his/her firearm.

Carrying a hammer around for years does not make you a master Carpenter. Most of the civilians in my classes are MUCH more proficient then the avg LE.

The reason is motivation. The avg cop does NOT train and only qualifies 2-4 times a YEAR. Contrast that with the cilivian that PAYS for his own training. Highly motivated to improve skills and will regularly PRACTICE those skills.

 

[Lohman446]

I have spent the better part of 3 decades carrying in hostile environments AND teaching both LE/Mil and cilvians. I do not see the avg LE as having even modest skills with his/her firearm.

I know the worst armed officer has to at least qualify by putting rounds on target. In MI there is no actual qualification criteria beyond putting rounds down range - I had one instructor flat out tell me the only thing they cared about was following directions and basic gun safety. To renew my license I have to certify that I have "reviewed the rules and had at least X amount (or rounds) of range practice in the last six months" or something to the effect - the bar is low.

So I get your point but at least the least qualified officer was forced to qualify.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Having a pistol in a rifle fight is not someplace that has high odds in your favor if you come to the attention of the rifleman or their accomplice.

I have never understood the gross generalities of match two different platforms for a fight (pistol vs. rifle in this case) and then proclaiming the odds to not be in favor of the pistol. None of the interior distances of the Pulse Club were over ~20 yards, well within the effective fighting range of pistols and chances are if you were there with a gun that you would not be at the extremes of distance from the shooter.

Most mass shootings (not all) are at short range.

 

[K_Mac]

This is one of the biggest fallacies it the shooting world. "He's a cop, so he can shoot BETTER then the armed civilian". What TOTAL B.S.

I did not say that a civilian was not capable. My skill level, or yours is not the point. A professional has responsibilities and legal protections that a civilian does not. If you don't teach your students that, you should reevaluate your syllabus.

 

[Guv]

How about Garland Texas were the cop with the 45cl Glock took out the 2 rifle toting bad guys? The guy with the pistol did pretty good on that day.

 

[FITASC]

FACT. Everyone in the club was an adult.

Chronologically, correct. Mentally, emotionally? Maybe yes, maybe no. This was a large group of folks who were there to party - and at 2AM - hook up for the evening. The mass hysteria, confusion and panic once bullets start flying is completely understandable and expected. Unlike Flight 93, they didn't have time to plan a strategy to take the bad guy on, it was everyone for themselves just trying to get out of harm's way, not trying to rush the gunman with some sense of bravado.

This type of terrorism is only going to become more prevalent.

Brevard County (FL) sheriff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CATKBjsuyp0&sns=em