Cocked and locked LEO carry

[WC145]

Yes, in the interest of the original topic, I carried 1911s on and off duty, and still carry them, still compete with them.

Officers must qualify as Expert, and then attend additional training before being certified to carry 1911s on the street. If I am not mistaken, there may be an additional requirement that they have a certain number of years on the job or prior military experience. I'll have to ask my LAPD buddy.

Point is, no, they are in fact not allowed to the general pool of officers. Like patrol rifles, they require an additional interest on the part of the officer, supervisory approval, and additional training. That a SWAT team uses 1911s is completely immaterial to the issue of platoon officers using them.

I never worked for LAPD or anywhere on the west coast but I'd be interested to know the rational behind requiring an officer to qualify 'expert' with a 1911 but no other handgun. Hell, they're easier to shoot well than everything else out there. Our local S.O. switched their issue sidearms from G21s to full size Kimbers a few years ago, after transitional training everyone that got the new guns shot better when they qualified than they did with the Glocks. Frankly, I'm surprised a dept that big would allow guns other than those issued.

In addition, they're far behind the times if those are truly the hoops one has to jump through to get a patrol rifle. Here in Maine we all but mothballed our shotguns several years ago for patrol rifles, a far more versatile weapon, and a trend that we took our time about joining.

I understand that the wheels turn slowly in a dept as large as LAPD, because of the logistics involved in changing weapons systems, allowing guns other than the type issued, etc.. There is far more in play than whether or not a particular officer can master the thumb safety. You're more likely to see 'alternative' weapons in rural areas that are covered by smaller agencies where the rules are looser and often the officers have to provide they're own guns.

 

[tipoc]

I never worked for LAPD or anywhere on the west coast but I'd be interested to know the rational behind requiring an officer to qualify 'expert' with a 1911 but no other handgun.

Don't assume that this piece of information is accurate. In general police depts. want an officer to qualify with the piece they will carry and not much more beyond that, unless the job requires it. When we hear a claim like this we should expect some evidence to back it up. I don't think there is any. Note that in the next breath he says...

Point is, no, they are in fact not allowed to the general pool of officers. Like patrol rifles, they require an additional interest on the part of the officer, supervisory approval, and additional training. That a SWAT team uses 1911s is completely immaterial to the issue of platoon officers using them.

...He states that the 1911 is not a general issue sidearm in the L.A.P.D. Then he says that when it is it requires special training and the bosses consent. So I'm not sure he really knows. Some evidence to support this assertion is required.

tipoc

 

[L-2]

It's the internet. The LAPD comments regsrding the 1911 sound similar to what I've also heard. Take the info for granted; disregard the info in part or in its entirety. With the internet and social media, agencies now have rules against persons posting things which may specifically i.d. their affiliation with a specific agency; whether it's personal security or the possibility of causing a negative view of that agency, anything can be taken out of context and may either be old news or never-was-true or accurate. It also be operationally confidential.

"Qualifying as expert"? What's that even mean if indeed true? Perhaps the LEO also must qualify as expert with the issued normal pistol. Don't worry about it. We don't need to know. "Evidence"? Nobody within LAPD is going to post a photo or pdf of an internal document regarding its 1911 policy. Again, take the info for what it is or even put me or anyone else on "ignore".

For the sake of an academic argument, perhaps for an agency to deviate from its normally-issued Glock, they may require the LEO to prove to that agency it's worthwhile and a benefit to that agency to take the time for an additional class, qualification, armorer services, parts, anything else depending on policies along with taking on the liabilities of ok'ing another, additional, or different firearm type or brand.

These policies tend to change or even completely go away over time. It was just a couple of decades ago and revolvers were common. I can think of one agency where revolvers are still issued. Oh yeah? Who? I'm not telling...

 

[BlueTrain]

Inasmuch as Colt still makes a reasonable copy of the original Government Model, why would a police agency choose, say, a Kimber instead? It can't be because one works differently from the other.

At one time, Colt automatic pistols were fairly popular as a military and police handgun internationally but so were Lugers. Although Colt automatics were still in wide use 30 years after WWII, as were Lugers, I rather doubt many new ones were being sold to military or police customers. I would have guessed that one reason was because of the large amount of small arms in circulation after the war. Yet both M1 rifles and Lee-Enfields were both still being manufactured well after the end of the war. I guess you can never have enough rifles, the same way we can never have enough pistols.

 

[noonesshowmonkey]

I'd really suggest some folks do some actual research on this.

From LAPDonline.org:

Beretta:

92F, 92FS, 92FS-Stainless Steel, 8045 (4” barrel)

Smith & Wesson:

459, 5904, 5903, 659, 5906, 645, 4506, 4566, 4567, 5903 TSW, 5906 TSW, 4569 TSW, and 4566 TSW.

Glock:

9mm: Model 34, magazine capacity 17
Model 17, magazine capacity 17
Model 19, magazine capacity 15

.40 caliber: Model 35, magazine capacity 15
Model 22, magazine capacity 15
Model 23, magazine capacity 13

.45 caliber: Model 21, magazine capacity 13

Like most departments, the LAPD has much of their policy book online. This is section 6.10, regarding firearms.

Without getting into anecdotal information, you can see that the 1911 is nowhere on that list. A close reading of 6.10 will show that personally owned firearms can be used with supervisory permission, so long as they pass a series of exams (function tests, clean, etc.--note a long section in that policy regarding the cocking of a DA handgun into SA...) and the rank wants to write on it.

If you want to impugn someone's credibility, you would do well to do so after at least a cursory amount of research.

In fact, it would be a worthwhile thing for folks to just google a major PD's firearms policy. Most can be found online. You don't have to take my word for it, you can get it straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[tipoc]

This is an odd discussion. In the first place it was stated early on by some one that no police department in the U.S. uses 1911s. The L.A.P.D. was specifically mentioned. This information was patently wrong. Myself and others showed that the 1911 is in use across the country by law enforcement but not in large numbers and generally in SWAT teams and special squads, etc. and by individual officers here and there where the departments allow personal choices. No one here claimed, that I recall, that L.A.P.D. generally issued 1911s as their standard service sidearm.

The L.A.P.D. specifically allowed the use of the 1911 in it's SWAT teams and SIS squad (if that's changed it's been in the last couple of years.)

How do we know that the L.A.P.D. did this? One reason is that Kimber widely marketed the SIS gun for a few years:

http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/four-kimber-sis-45-acps/

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/kimber-sis-review/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/25/kimber-sis-1911-pistols-discontinued/

The gun was controversial and widely reported on in the press.

Kimber has also reported their sales of guns to the L.A.P.D. SWAT teams for years now...

America's best shooters keep choosing Kimber. Legendary LAPD™ SWAT tested five major 1911 brands and chose Kimber. United States Marines assigned to Special Operations Command chose Kimber. The U.S.A. Shooting Rapid Fire Pistol Team trains for Olympic competition with a Kimber. Most recently, LAPD™ SIS transitioned to Kimber. They all chose Kimber for the same reason: quality, dependability and accuracy. So should you.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/1911

In an article on SIS and Glock note the reference to the "other .45-caliber pistol":

Like the rest of the LAPD, members of SIS are no strangers to Glocks. Along with Smith & Wessons and Berettas, Glocks have long been authorized carry weapons for LAPD officers. They are also the weapons of choice for many members of SIS — particularly the .45-caliber Glock 21 loaded with their round of choice: Federal Tactical bonded 230-grain +P Hollow Point. However, despite its outstanding reputation for reliability and stopping power, the G21 — and the unit’s other .45-caliber pistol choices — were a challenge to carry concealed. Since all SIS operations are conducted in civilian clothes blending discreetly with the public, effective concealment is high on their priority list.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/10/gun-review-lapds-sis-k-i-s-s-pistol-goes-public/

What about SWAT?

The LAPD SWAT team carry the Kimber Custom TLE II in 2002, renaming it the Kimber LAPD SWAT Custom II.[99] Before that, LAPD SWAT carried modified Springfield or Colt M1911 pistols. In the '80s and early '90s SWAT carried Colt RO727s and RO733s. In 2000 they began using the M4A1s. In 2010 LAPD SWAT began issuing Heckler & Koch HK416 rifles.[98] Currently SWAT's primary weapons are the Heckler & Koch HK416 rifle, the M4 Carbine, the FN SCAR rifle, the Colt 9mm submachine gun, the HK MP5 submachine gun, the Armalite AR-10 sniper rifle, the Remington 700 sniper rifle, the Barrett M82 sniper rifle, the M14 sniper rifle, the Benelli M4 Super 90 shotgun, and the Remington 870 shotgun.[98]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Police_Department#Firearms

If you want to impugn someone's credibility, you would do well to do so after at least a cursory amount of research.

It does not impugn someones credibility to ask them what their sources are when they make a claim that seems odd or to explain their claim more.

tipoc

 

[SocialAnarchist]

Golly, I am beginning to be sorry I even mentioned seeing a police officer with a cocked and locked 1911.

It's funny how a simple comment like that turned into this bizarre sidetrack. It's also ridiculous to the point of stupidity that any time someone mentions a brand, or type, of pistol the fans of every other brand of pistol have to jump up and defend their choice as the one and only answer to all things firearm related.

But let me be brutally clear here, I honestly don't care if any other department issues or allows their officers to carry a 1911. I'm not sure how that even related to my original post in any way. Maybe some of you that are so sure about what LEOs carry should open your eyes and look around because in the last week I have seen Beretta 92s, Sig Sauer .357Sig, 1911 cocked and locked, S&W M&P, and even a Glock or 2.

Carry on anyways, as I'm sure you will.

 

[BlueTrain]

What is the logic in allowing as a general duty weapon a Glock but not a Colt Government Model?