Cocked and locked LEO carry

If the advantage of a high capacity magazine is more rounds doesn't the inability to hit anything negate that advantage? Maybe less rounds forces a discipline that more rounds may eliminate.
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Since when is there an inability to hit anything? I also disagree that less rounds forces more discipline. Officers in the days of revolvers shot their handguns dry as well. Adrenaline takes over and keeping track of rounds becomes difficult. The difference now is that it takes more shots for the pistol to be empty. That's good for the officer in terms of having the rounds to make the hits on often multiple assailants, but potentially not as good for the unwitting bystander if that officer is a poor shot. Neither system is a guarantee of the skill or lack thereof on behalf of the officer.
 
A gunfight is a gunfight, not shooting at paper targets. Fire discipline is well and good, but incapacitating shots are what stop fights, and until that happens, you need to keep shooting. If anything, the lack of hits even with high capacity handguns should argue for even more capacity. (And better marksmanship / force on force gunfighting training.) Running dry is a sure way to lose a gunfight.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds on the job.

There are many, many more examples of this kind of a gunfight, where an officer ends up firing far more shots than anyone would expect, and would have run a 1911 with two backup magazines dry twice, if not three times.

As a snarky kind of comment, you'll note that the officer in question swapped from a Glock 21 in .45 to a Glock 17 in 9mm. Capacity.
 
There was an incident not that long ago where the police fired 84 shots and scored 1 non-lethal hit on the offender. This is not the only case reported like this. Spray and pray is not a sound tactic in the majority of instances.

Of course neither is a guarantee of marksmanship under stress and your comment about bystanders being shot rings true also during spray and pray by LEOs. There was another case not that long ago where the cops shot more innocent bystanders than perps in one gun battle. How can that be ever considered acceptable..
 
I would say in the above cases, the lower cap guns would be preferable.

It takes a lot longer to continue spraying, when you have to constantly reload, and less rounds in the mags, means less innocents shot. :)
 
Honestly, all I posted originally was that I saw an LEO carrying a cocked and locked 1911.

I insulted no other gun, including the Glock. Nor did I insult anyone choosing anything other than a 1911.
 
wandering

The post seems to be wandering from "1911 on duty" to single stack v. high capacity, which is not quite the same thing, but I'll offer some comments, then try and come back to center.

While I did not carry a 1911, I "walked beside" (an old Skeeter Skelton phrase) a single stack SIG .45 for quite a few years on a daily basis, as the P220 was one of the approved duty guns for my agency. As such, rarely, did anybody who did so in uniform, back it with just two 7 rd mags. As soon as the reliable MecGar 8rd unit hit the field, they went to work, typically carried in a quad pouch. That's 41 rds counting the ammo in the pistol. The equal of a G21 backed with 2 hi caps. And very close to a G22 with 2 hi caps.

While the modern poly pistol is very reliable, implying that the 1911 will not hold up under abuse, when "everybody gets one" is flawed logic. It's hard to dispute the record of the 1911 durability/reliability wise, or it's wide spread issuance, over two World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, and other bush wars fought by all branches of service. By comparison, the Beretta's (not polymer I know) record is not near as strong.

"Sweeping" suspects and other officers/non threats, is not a trigger pull weight issue, but a training issue. Muzzle integrity and finger placement are issues no matter the system. By comparison, the police shotgun, and the patrol carbine, are both "SA" systems, with external safeties, and muzzle/finger applies to them as with any firearm.

The DA/SA systems are not without fault. The transition from DA to SA is real, though can be overcome with practice. But move away from the system for awhile, and the issue will surface. I shot my SIG, cold, recently at a match, after shooting Glocks for about a year and double/single gave me fits. Finally, I have seen some people fail to decock the double/single pistols, either under stress, or from stupidity, when they really should have. Which is why I think I'm finding the Glock pistol, or maybe better , the XD with its grip safety, more and more interesting. Same pull, every time. Which can be said of the 1911 BTW.

Lastly, I think the big bullet arguement still is a good one, despite the FBI's recent re-endorsement of the 9mm. I will not elaborate as it's been hashed many times. But as a "patrol" caliber, where obstacles, cover, etc, are commonly encountered, that big chunk of lead has some merit. Many gunfight wounds are from fragments, and the bigger fragment the better.

BAck to post. You occasionally see a 1911 pistol in LE here in my area, but it is typically not a uniform/duty gun. Just last weekend I crossed paths with a Co. DTF officer, whose carry gun was 1911. There are also some high speed low drag types in the the PD across the river (75-100 officers?), Invg's with collateral SWAT assignment, who carry it as well.
 
I once knew a man who had been an armored car guard; he killed two armed robbers in two different robbery attempts, with one shot apiece. With a Colt 1903 in .32 ACP. Coolness and skill may count as much or more than firepower.

Jim
 
There's a long thread at 1911forum.com, where members report agencies allowing or issuing 1911s.
It's a lot more widespread than I would have thought, if for no other reason than cost. For a large LE contract, Glock will just about give away their guns (which is goes a long way toward explaining why they're so popular with U.S. LE).
 
So many awesome responses here.

I don't think lower capacity yields better discipline in squeezing the trigger until the gun runs dry. I feel it's a stress induced issue. Happens to rookies and the most highly decorated officers alike. Can't predict it as each instance if different from the next.

Calling Glock's crappy, I disagree with. Are they over-hyped? Sure. They're not crappy though. I too don't like them aesthetically. Then in a way I do.

I always use this to explain myself.

2 parts of my brain. Self defense and gun enthusiast.

Gun Enthusiast: 1911's. Browning High-Powers. SA Army Revolvers.

Self Defense: Glock. SIG Sauer. Heckler & Koch.

You can have a spot for whatever you want. I have 2 friends on this forum that carry 1911's because they feel comfortable with 8+1. I particularly don't. I like my 15+1. I have another friend here that respects 1911's but sold all his and wouldn't carry one. To each his own.

It is pretty cool to see a peace officer carrying a 1911 though.

One thing we can ALL (lol..."all") agree on (lol..."agree") is that we admire and respect anyone who carries a .45ACP and/or 1911. I know I do.

From time to time I get ballsy enough to do so myself. My Smith & Wesson 4.25 1911 PD. But that is a rare occurrence.
 
To tell the truth I would love to carry a 1911 style pistol in 45 ACP instead of my issued Beretta 92FS 9MM. Unfortunately the agency I work for would have us carry as if it were 1940-1980; loaded magazine, hammer down, unloaded chamber. When we got our Berettas it took almost 2 years before we could carry with a round in the chamber, and then it was officer's choice.
 
I made my comment because I despise glocks almost as much as their fan boys (second only to apple fanatics). I know they work... or they're supposed to, mine recently malfunctioned for still mysterious reasons and I've had more issues with mine than any other pistol I"ve owned/used though about 99 percent can be attributed to the magazines. But I don't find anything I like about the glock design at all... cost is the only redeeming quality I find from them. Sorry if anyone took offense to my comment but the more I'm forced to use a glock the more I hate them.

As for switching agencies frankly this one pays me too much to make switching financially feasible.

I think most 1911 problems stem from manufacturers tightening up the tolerances far beyond what they should be (IMO) and internet hype about reliability problems.

Will we still be using glocks in a century who knows... but 1911's certainly haven't disappeared.
 
I know they work... or they're supposed to, mine recently malfunctioned for still mysterious reasons and I've had more issues with mine than any other pistol I"ve owned/used though about 99 percent can be attributed to the magazines.
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And people responded about how you could diagnose that issue. It's not really Glock's fault that your department, chose to use 45 GAP (you could blame them for inventing the caliber I suppose). I'm sure Glock cut them a deal for them to choose that caliber, but frankly it was a pretty stupid decision. It's not Glock's fault that your department doesn't have an armor or replacement pistols for when one goes down. It's not Glock's fault that your department doesn't have practice ammo on hand for its officers. Nor is it Glock's fault that you can't find ammo in that caliber locally because it never took off, Glock probably isn't happy about that either. Nor is it Glock's fault that living in NY you have to get ammo shipped to a dealer instead of yourself. Nor is it Glock's fault if that pistol fails on you before you get to the range "in a couple weeks" (how you can trust your life to a potentially faulty pistol with such apathy is pretty mind boggling).

As for switching agencies frankly this one pays me too much to make switching financially feasible.
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Money's not much good if you're dead and faulty equipment is a pretty decent way to end up as such. You might want to have an honest talk with the guys in your department, if you're not the only one with firearm related issues, about maybe sacrificing some pay for a short time to get reliable equipment and enough of it or at least to be allowed to use personal equipment if guys don't want to sacrifice wages. Or try going to the town/city. Generally politicians can be swayed/bribed with an endorsement if they want to look tough on crime.


Glocks are far from "Perfection" and I can understand disliking them for the ergonomics, trigger, sights, etc. There are a lot of great pistols on the market these days and frankly some work better for people than Glocks. The situation you've been describing though is basic negligence. If you think a 1911 is more forgiving of negligence than a Glock, I think you're mistaken.
 
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Out here I most often see local police, county cops and the CHP.

CHP carries the 4006 S&W TSW and a few other third gen S&Ws that are grandfathered in.

San Mateo Co. Sheriff's Deputies carry a few approved weapons. Popular with them are 1911s. Generally carried in condition one. Other weapons particularly Sigs and S&W M&Ps are also seen.

My local police generally carry Glocks and Sigs. The SWAT team carries what they like and there are some there who prefer the 1911. the S&W M&P has been gaining some favor there as well.

tipoc
 
My department issued Revolvers. (or you could carry your own as long as it was a Smith or Cold 38/357).

Late in my career they decided to allow a few semis and allowed or allowed 6 inch Revolvers.

You had to qualify with what ever you carried of course, but the Semis were pretty much limited to Colt 1911s, Browning HPs, or S&W Models 39/59s. Those who carried the Colts or Browning had to carry them locked and cocked.
I had quite a bit of experience with the USGI 1911s so I elected to carry the Colt for a while but soon switched back to my Model 28.

This was with the Anchorage PD and we had to deal with large animals, Hundreds of Moose/vehicle encounters in Anchorage bowl every year and many required the moose be put down.

The Model 28 w/LSW 357s was much more effective then the 45/9MMs for that task.

I did switch to the 6 in. Model 27, but that extra 2 inches sucked riding around in the patrol car all day. Again went back to my Model 28 and finished my career.

Never had a Glock, never cared for them, they just don't fit my hand.

I know this is the Semi form, but if I was to go back into LE, I'd still choose my Model 28.

Since I carry per the LEOSA, I have to qualify yearly. I qualify with a department that has a good program, and we have several retirees qualifying at the same time. Now days I'm about the only one who shows up with a revolver. The last 4 years running none of those semi's out shot my revolver.

Its not that the revolver shooters better then the semis, its that I shoot more then those in that group that carry semis.

This tells me its no the gun, but the shooter. 15 rounds isn't any better then 6 rounds if you cant hit with those 15 rounds.
 
The single action trigger, much less something as light as a 1911 trigger can be, is a dicey thing in a LE setting. There are already quite a few instances of accidental / negligent discharges, of officers sweeping or covering a suspect with a finger on the trigger, etc., where the light single action is even more of a liability than other mechanical methods.
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Poor gun handling skills are just that no matter what trigger system on a handgun is used.

A good example of this is a few years back a Captain on the Missouri Highway Patrol shot himself through the arm during a training exercise and the handgun being used was a Glock.
 
This tells me its no the gun, but the shooter. 15 rounds isn't any better then 6 rounds if you cant hit with those 15 rounds.
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There's a lot of truth to that. What 15 shot does give you is more chances to hit. If your marksmanship is terrible then yeah you're right it won't matter and having more shots isn't carte blanche to not develop and maintain those marksmanship skills. But let's say under stress you make hits 30% of the time. The means in 6 shots you'll make 1.8. If 15 shots you'll make 4.5. At some point probability comes into play. I don't think a man with only 6 shots is doomed but nor do I think the man with 15 shots only has that many because he is a poor marksman.
 
The single action trigger, much less something as light as a 1911 trigger can be, is a dicey thing in a LE setting.
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There were never a significant number of 1911s or BHPs used in U.S. law enforcement at any time in the last 100 years for broad generalities like the above to be applicable.

Until the post war period there were no Hi-Powers in the U.S. in any significant number. Maybe there was an individual here and there who had one and used it but it was not a general issue police sidearm anywhere that I've heard of.

The 1911 was used by some agencies but not a lot of them. Some allowed it in 45 and 38 Super. But it was considered a military sidearm and frowned upon for law enforcement use.

Until the 1980s the revolver dominated in law enforcement. The first agency to issue them as general issue was the Illinois state police in the 1970s. S&W da/sa pistol in 9mm.

The da/sa pistol came to dominate military and law enforcement use internationally in the postwar period and when law enforcement here took to the semi auto it was at first the S&W da/sa guns. It was the beginning of the years of the "wonder 9s". High cap 9mm pistols.

The change was moving right along with S&W leading the way till 1986 when the U.S. adopted the M9. Like an explosion police moved to the Beretta 92 in large numbers. Sig and H&K picked up a few.

Da/sa guns were hands down considered the best for law enforcement use. Despite Jeff Cooper's losing fight to explain that all that was needed was more training.

But the transition to semis also meant renewed interest in the 1911 and the BHP. They saw an increase in use as well. The FBI hostage rescue team (HRT) took to the Hi-Power. Various SWAT teams took up the 1911 and like that. But they were never close to being widespread.

Glocks showed up and the low cost (sometimes absolutely free/no cost) for law enforcement and their reliability and light weight rapidly became popular and brought about a revolution.

It's possible that more 1911s are in use by law enforcement today than in the 1970s or earlier. Usually with SWAT teams or county Sheriffs etc.

Law enforcement and others used to argue strongly that da/sa pistols were the best of all worlds for cops to use. The da first shot made bad shootings less likely, you could always cock the hammer for a long range accurate first shot if needed, and they had a safety if needed and made it harder for the bad guys to use a grabbed gun against you. All that went out the window when low cost Glocks showed up. Now all ya had to do was what Jeff Cooper argued, maintain trigger discipline and more training. That, of course, hasn't stopped folks from shooting themselves with Glocks.

tipoc
 
We have 1911s here on both our Sheriff's and PD. I love the 1911. That said, when you are in NYC or LA, you can assume that many of your 40,000+ cops are not gun people. Some wouldn't carry at all if you allowed it, and some are even very anti gun. Now introduce limited training and skill set maintenance from such folks, and you can see how the old "sympathetic hand closure" issue could be a problem with short stroke triggers. It is that way in the armored car industry with the left hand clutching a bag, as well. Large departments have to issue and train to the lowest common denominator. This leaves the 1911 out in the cold a lot, despite ày being a helluva weapon.

If winning a gunfight with a handgun were the ONLY criteria, then a widebody 1911 would be one of my first choices, but there are other things for a department (or indibidual) to consider.
 
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