Cocked and locked LEO carry

Geez, I post a simple comment about seeing an LEO with a cocked and locked 1911 and said it was refreshing in this day and age of polymer pistols and it turns into this.

I never said it was a good choice or a bad choice. I also never asked for the Glock anti-defamation league to jump in and proclaim blasphemy since I mentioned an LEO not carrying the all mighty Glock. (Which if you like, more power to you.)

I for d@mn sure never said it was quaint that he was carrying a cocked and locked 1911.

I noticed not only the cocked and locked 1911, but also that the holster had a strap between the hammer and the frame of the pistol.

On a side note, I teach fire training at a tech college and we share the facility with EMS and Police. The other day I was chatting with a police recruit and asked him about his firearms knowledge. He told me he had never had a real gun in his hand until he started the academy. That is a pure indication of a city boy in Wisconsin because the vast majority that live in the country have been shooting since they were old enough to hold a gun in their hands. This lack of experience is a greater issue in my mind than the weapon chosen.
 
Geez, I post a simple comment about seeing an LEO with a cocked and locked 1911 and said it was refreshing in this day and age of polymer pistols and it turns into this.
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What if it had been a revolver!?! Imagine the outrage!

tipoc
 
Whenever i get a chance to go to Denver and catch a game, most (90%) of the uniformed Officers i see are carrying a 1911. Some Of the traffic guys are using revolvers so i guess that is 2 oddball guns in use with the same dept
 
tipoc said:
See when law enforcement went to semis they went to S&W first gen double stack 9mms
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I believe it was initially the single stack 39, with the double stack 59 coming shortly thereafter.

I've carried a 1911 cocked and locked, as well as a Sar K2-45 and a H&K USP40 in a cocked and safety on state. Currently carry an M&P40, and as been mentioned, the trigger pull weights are close.

Reasons for the switch? The 1911 and Sar are all metal, and get heavy on the hip. The USP grip frame was a bit short for my liking. The M&P, with the largest back strap, fits my hand beautifully, thus the switch.

BTW, around here, most departments are a provide your own, Glocks still dominant, but 1911s and even 92s, can be seen in quite a few holsters. ISP and Cairo PD issue GLock 22s, and I believe Anna PD still issues 3rd gen Smiths.
 
I think the flaw in the reasoning here is imagining that policemen are government gunfighters. They aren't. They're policemen and they do police work. When there's a gunfight, they call in their SWAT team. And what kind of gun does the SWAT team have in their hands? Chance are, it won't be a pistol.
 
BlueTrain...

While I'm no gunfighter, I can tell you that other then ISP's SRT, no one around me has a SWAT team. Not every department has that option, and even then they aren't going to be there for that traffic stop that goes bad right now. Or that domestic. Or that seemingly harmless call for service in regards to someone tagging a garage door that just might be an ambush.

Just watch the news. We, law enforcement, just had another brother, KSP, shot and killed last night on a traffic stop. Possibly over a suspended driving status. When did that troop have time to call SWAT? Or the indicators that he should have? No, it's usually a right now kind of thing that happens, and unless they barricade themselves in, it's a warrant service or something ongoing for any kind of time, it's not SWAT exchanging gun fire.

Again, while we aren't "gunfighters", more and more everyday, we had better be ready to fight with our guns. Even in small town and rural America, it's happening far, far too often.
 
I've also had a Sheriff come in my office carrying a stainless Springfield 1911 TRP in .45acp. cocked and locked.
 
I believe it was initially the single stack 39, with the double stack 59 coming shortly thereafter.
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You're correct. It was in 1967 that the Illinois State Police adopted the 8 round lighter weight alloy framed S&W Model 39 as a general issue sidearm. It was the first law enforcement agency to issue a semi as a general issue sidearm in the U.S. It remained the only one for a number of years. By the time the tide was turning the double stacks were the norm.

tipoc
 
When I was dispatching the sheriff's department was switching from .357 revolvers to Smith and Wesson model 39 or 59. They were allowing deputies that wished to retain their revolvers to do so. Most switched, but some of the old timers retained their revolvers. That made sense to me, someone that was closer to retirement than to the beginning of their career would be more comfortable with their revolver.
 
The design is over 100 years old, there dang well should be better platforms but it is uncanny that there are many who believe there isn't. This has got to be more than just the emotional appeal of the "old punkin roller"

What car were people driving in 1911 and on into the 1920s? Who would drive one today for their regular transportation needs?

One very important factor in the longevity of the 1911 is that there will probably always be parts, gadgets, books, how-tos, smiths who specialize in the pistol, etc., etc.

This is something you can't say for some excellent pistols that have come and gone,such as the Ruger P series.
 
tipoc said:
You're correct. It was in 1967 that the Illinois State Police adopted the 8 round lighter weight alloy framed S&W Model 39 as a general issue sidearm. It was the first law enforcement agency to issue a semi as a general issue sidearm in the U.S. It remained the only one for a number of years. By the time the tide was turning the double stacks were the norm.
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Yep! My 39-2 is supposed to be one of those early ISP firearms. One day I'll letter it and find out for sure.
 
BlueTrain...

While I'm no gunfighter, I can tell you that other then ISP's SRT, no one around me has a SWAT team. Not every department has that option, and even then they aren't going to be there for that traffic stop that goes bad right now. Or that domestic. Or that seemingly harmless call for service in regards to someone tagging a garage door that just might be an ambush.

Just watch the news. We, law enforcement, just had another brother, KSP, shot and killed last night on a traffic stop. Possibly over a suspended driving status. When did that troop have time to call SWAT? Or the indicators that he should have? No, it's usually a right now kind of thing that happens, and unless they barricade themselves in, it's a warrant service or something ongoing for any kind of time, it's not SWAT exchanging gun fire.

Again, while we aren't "gunfighters", more and more everyday, we had better be ready to fight with our guns. Even in small town and rural America, it's happening far, far too often.
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Good post. I tire of the broad brushes people paint with. More and more cops are not only faced with bad guys that are ready and willing to shoot it out, but that are looking for a gun fight. In addition, the expectation the last several years has swung towards taking the fight to the shooter immediately, not setting up a perimeter and waiting around for SWAT or SRT to show up. Never mind the current crop of ambushes and other shootings, when something like that happens you're all alone.

I retired from LE last year, and frankly, I'm glad I did considering the crap that's going on right now. My heart goes out to all of you guys wearing badges and guns these days, it hasn't been this volatile in over 40 years.

I've always strived to be the fastest, most accurate gun in training and qualifying. Always trained with my BUG and knives, worked on H2H and conditioning. Anything can happen anytime, but there's no sense it making it easy.

Maybe it's time for more cops to train like gunfighters - be faster, be more accurate, be in shape - and be ready to go to guns if you have to. This is not a time for complacency.
 
I posed this question to my buddy who is a university and state capital LEO. He says he'd love to carry a 1911 but it would be like trading his bicycle for a corvette. Very cool, but not practical for the purpose. Interesting thought I suppose.
 
I don't wish to minimize the dangers faced by policemen but the fact is, there are no more policemen dying now than in past years. Some years in the past were particularly bloody for the police and that was when the population was smaller.

According to the FBI, which is as good a source of information as any, one policeman died in Virginia from a felonious incident and 27 nationwide, in 2013. There was no information there for 2014 and the killing isn't over for 2015. In Virginia for the ten years ending in 2013, a total of 14 policemen were killed feloniously. More policemen die of accidents than from felonious incidents, for what it's worth. In comparison, 72 died in felonious incidents in 2011.

During the same ten year period, the most per state was 44 in California and 44 in Texas.
 
WC145...thank you for your service!

BlueTrain, you're correct about the statistics. But they don't tell the whole story. My entire career thus far has been in this age of information, and things have changed drastically over the last couple of years. There has always been danger, but it's taking a turn for the worse. From ambush calls to sneak attacks while sitting in the squad, and while pumping gas , the bad guys seem to have gotten extremely brazen in this short amount of time. Toss in race baiters and bs movements that shall remain unnamed, as well as government officials empowering them, and they are only going to get braver.

I train daily, while on duty and off, in getting to my firearm and getting on target. I carry my M&P in a level 3 retention holster, and I'll practise my draw from sitting in my squad [2007 Charger] with my seat belt on, all the way to sitting in the squad room on the computer, and every scenario I can think of in between. I practise weapon retention and weapon grabs. And more than ever, my head is on a swivel.

WC145 nailed it. Even though statistics bear out your point BlueTrain, we are definitely under attack, and are close to having to be gunfighters as ever. There has been other very dangerous times in law enforcement for sure, but this current atmosphere definitely ranks up there. And again, the SWAT option isn't always an option, and more and more, there isn't even time to grab a radio, let alone ask for SWAT.
 
And to stay on topic, lol, I would gladly go cocked and locked and not feel under gunned or anything. If an officer trains, swiping off the safety as the weapon clears holster becomes so second nature, it just becomes part of the movement.

I'm currently waiting on my Sheriff to possibly approve a transition to .22 TCM for me. My Chief Deputy, however, is pushing hard for department issued weapons, and although he's an M&P fan, Glock , due to cost, is probably in my future instead. Upside is that's he pushing for fullsize duty, compact off duty and sub compact bug, all furnished. 3 furnished guns vs 1 self provided? Good compromise..lol..
 
You are quite correct, Mr. mrray13, that the police are indeed under attack. In fact, just a stone's throw from where I sit, two policemen (or rather one policeman and one policeman) were killed in an ambush at the Chantilly, Virginia, police station by a man with a .30-06 rifle. That was in 2006. There was also a sheriff's deputy killed in 1905. Those are the only law enforcement officers killed in Fairfax county. There were others who died accidently, however.
 
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