Cocked and locked baby!
- Thread starter newarcher
- Start date
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Yeah, so I guess the sub 1 second draws with "A" hits is too slow. I could probably shave some time off if I didn't have to disengage the safety.
1911's C&L are no slower than any other weapon. Just think how fast and good all the pros would be if they would just switch from 1911's to something else.
Joe:
Not every threat builds. Not every situation gives you time to rack the slide or even give commands. Many times, the only thing you have time to do is draw and fire. Carrying a weapon in any condition other than ready for immediate use is like not carrying any weapon at all.
Condition 1 vs condition 3 is a huge difference. Way fewer steps are involved deploying from cond. 1 (read fewer chances for Mr. Murphy's interference). It takes far less time which can translate to more distance between you and the BG (always a good thing). Outdrawing somone holding you at gunpoint can and has been done (won't do it in cond. 3 though), but more importantly is the time it buys you. If your assailant is closing the distance between you, having to rack the slide gives him a free half second. That means the average person can close the distance by about 7 ft. (Tueller 21ft in 1.5 seconds). If the encounter starts at 10 feet, you now have a much more serious problem. Trying to move off line while racking the slide introduces many varibles that aren't there if you move offline in cond. 1. What they are armed with is immaterial. If they have a gun; you have just given them time to take a couple of shots, a knife; time to close and attack, a brick; time to throw or close and attack. If the situation unfolds slowly, you could argue that there is time to rack the slide. However, that is not always the case.
As for the magazine springs, we'll have to agree to disagree. I have magazines that I have left loaded for extended periods of time that are just as reliable now as they were when they were new several years and several hundreds of thousands of rounds ago.
Spade Cooley
Moderator
I guess there is no use. Fumbling for a safety or racking a pistol slide when the du du hits the fan is a bad idea. Whats wrong with a DAO pistol that is simple and all you have to do is pull the trigger to make it happen. Either a first shot double action auto or DAO Glock, even a revolver is a much better way to go. When you watch scariest shootouts on TV the cops are walking up to a vehicle and they don't have time to react even when they have the right weapon, Jacking with slides or safeties in a shoot out or a surprise robbery will never work. You want the gun ready to fire when you need it and want to pull the trigger. It will not go off unless you pull the trigger, period. But that is what you want to happen.
Spade
It's all in how you train. I guarantee I can shoot a 1911 faster than 95% can shoot a da or dao. If you train to take the safety off, you will take the safety off. It doesn't slow you down. Plus, you get a better trigger on a single action auto than you will get on any other type of action. Again, if it was so bad why do all the pros use the 1911? I don't have to watch the scariest shootouts to understand. BTDT
You are correct however in saying that you don't want to have to rack the slide.
It's all in how you train. I guarantee I can shoot a 1911 faster than 95% can shoot a da or dao. If you train to take the safety off, you will take the safety off. It doesn't slow you down. Plus, you get a better trigger on a single action auto than you will get on any other type of action. Again, if it was so bad why do all the pros use the 1911? I don't have to watch the scariest shootouts to understand. BTDT
You are correct however in saying that you don't want to have to rack the slide.
Joe...why not just rack the slide with a round already in the chamber, if you think that will establish dominance. Take it from a former cop, you DON'T have time. People attack police officers, who they KNOW to be armed. People can be nuts! You have to plan for the worst scenario and be thankful if it's not that bad.
You mentioned "good neighborhood" too. Well, bad people have cars, and "good neighborhoods" usually have money, jewelry, and valuable electronics. Where would you go?
Im not trying to beat up on you, but your logic is flawed. Better safe than sorry.
As to the 1911 cocked and locked, go for it. Lots of people have done it, and continue to do it.
You mentioned "good neighborhood" too. Well, bad people have cars, and "good neighborhoods" usually have money, jewelry, and valuable electronics. Where would you go?
Im not trying to beat up on you, but your logic is flawed. Better safe than sorry.
As to the 1911 cocked and locked, go for it. Lots of people have done it, and continue to do it.
JoeBlackSpade wrote:
I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?
Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.
I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.
I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?
Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.
I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.
Spade Cooley
Moderator
"Yet all it takes is a pull of the trigger to discharge"
That is exactly what you want to happen. I will not be pulling the trigger unless I have to. But when I do I don't want any interference from anything. Its happened hundreds of times where the armed citizen has been squeezing nothing but mush hoping the pistol would go off and nothing happened. In an emergence we tend to forget.
That is exactly what you want to happen. I will not be pulling the trigger unless I have to. But when I do I don't want any interference from anything. Its happened hundreds of times where the armed citizen has been squeezing nothing but mush hoping the pistol would go off and nothing happened. In an emergence we tend to forget.
crankshop1000
New member
I stand on what I said before and say the 1911 in any condition is too slow for any emergency. If it's taking a safety off or racking the slide, you will be dead meat before you can fire. The packing of a simple pistol where all you have to do is draw and pull the trigger is what you want. In emergencies people get shook up and forget to take the safety off or rack a slide. It all takes too long. Draw and pull the trigger is the only answer.
The 1911 is still the premier combat pistol that all are trying to equal. A 1911 in the hands of someone who knows how it is designed to operate will have an advantage over anything else out there.Thumbing the safety while drawing and the first shot single action is unbeatable.Sorry to sound harsh, but you don't know what you are talking about if you believe that a 1911 is slow.Chuck.
The 1911 is still the premier combat pistol that all are trying to equal. A 1911 in the hands of someone who knows how it is designed to operate will have an advantage over anything else out there.Thumbing the safety while drawing and the first shot single action is unbeatable.Sorry to sound harsh, but you don't know what you are talking about if you believe that a 1911 is slow.Chuck.
JoeBlackSpade
New member
Cond. 1 Vs. Cond. 3
I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?
Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.
I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.
Going on patrol with the Marines is not the same as walking your dog.
Of course, going on patrol, your weapon is locked and loaded- but you are EXPECTING to engage. You are LOOKING for the enemy, actively searching for them, or expecting to counter an ambush, etc. You are talking to other assets that might have spotted the targets you are TRYING to engage. Walking down the streets of America, there's little comparison. Hell, I remember stumbling drunk through the meanest streets of Washington D.C. near "8th and I" when I was stationed there, in little more than a t-shirt and a bottle of Jack Daniels in me- at 4:30 a.m., just trying to get back in time for morning P.T. Big difference between even our meanest streets and Fallujah.
I'm sorry, but I just don't have that much adrenaline, and intensity when I'm walking my dog in Lake Mary, FL.
You guys each have your own areas of expertise, and I truly do respect that as I mentioned earlier, but a few of you make me nervous, like you'd be more comfortable in the Old West, where anything more than a mouse fart will get you drawing on a tango down Main Street. Realistically, I'm going to anticipate a level of escalation in most confrontations.
The way I see it, there's only 2 ways a gunfight is going to go down on the streets:
a.) Less than lethal threat graduates to lethal threat with some level of warning.
>>>During such an escalation, I will have the ability to draw down, chamber a round, etc.
b.) Total surprise situation with a baseball bat to the head, or a thug with a pistol pops out from behind the bushes, aiming his weapon at me. He's got his muzzle to my face before I know what happens-
>>>In such a case, having a round in the chamber isn't going to help me one bit. Knowing that I have a round in the chamber might even sway my decision to draw when perhaps I really shouldn't. Those of you that think you're quick enough to draw when someone has a muzzle in your face, good luck with that. I'm a super-quick summammabich, but I'm not going for it unless the sun, the moon and the planets align, and the Spirit of the Lord gives me a gentle nudge to go for it.
Creature, I think you might be running my comments all together, and out of order, and they kinda' lose their context if you do that. I'm not talking about moving, blading, palm-heeling, ninja-rolling, and taking down multiples at night. I'm talking about the way it goes down in the street. Mugger comes walking with his buddy towards you at 3 a.m., asking "what- up- man", or "what time you got". My hand goes to my piece- but I don't draw down. My comments are something like "you got 3 seconds to get the **** outta here".
REAL LIFE SITUATION:
My father (58 years old, former Ranger) was driving through downtown Miami a few years ago in a rental vehicle. As is a common tactic, a car full of scum-bags rear-ended my father's car at low speed, while he was momentarily stopped at a stop sign. He saw the 3 or 4 guys moving around inside, and knew he'd likely be a victim. In a split second, he jumped out of the car, shoved his hand inside his jacket (LIKE HE WAS GOING FOR HIS WEAPON) and raised his free hand out, palm up, Al Pacino style. "What's up?" he was yelling to the guys. They spun their 20-inch rims, and drove off, cursing my dad, but not ready for a gunfight. He bluffed his way out, got back in his car, and left.
Not only did he NOT have a round in the chamber, he didn't have a piece, period. My point is that the credible threat of force is just as effective as force in most cases. While I'm certain he was lucky this time, its also important to note that this happened during a period of time in FL (recent) history where a number of Canadians, Europeans, and northerners were bumped like this, carjacked and subsequently KILLED in an identical set-up.
Carrying concealed is not the same as Marines on patrol, or a State Trooper flagging someone on I-95 with shifty characters behind the wheel. Unless you guys are walking the strip through bar-country with your pieces at 3:30 a.m. Then, yeah, I might chamber a round.
Just walking down by the beach in the afternoon, or whatnot, there's no way I need a round in the chamber in Wal Mart.
And I hope I never accidentally step on any of you guys' toes in Denny's at midnight. The way some of you guys talk, you've got trigger-pulls lighter than the 6-oz. sirloin.
I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?
Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.
I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.
Going on patrol with the Marines is not the same as walking your dog.
Of course, going on patrol, your weapon is locked and loaded- but you are EXPECTING to engage. You are LOOKING for the enemy, actively searching for them, or expecting to counter an ambush, etc. You are talking to other assets that might have spotted the targets you are TRYING to engage. Walking down the streets of America, there's little comparison. Hell, I remember stumbling drunk through the meanest streets of Washington D.C. near "8th and I" when I was stationed there, in little more than a t-shirt and a bottle of Jack Daniels in me- at 4:30 a.m., just trying to get back in time for morning P.T. Big difference between even our meanest streets and Fallujah.
I'm sorry, but I just don't have that much adrenaline, and intensity when I'm walking my dog in Lake Mary, FL.
You guys each have your own areas of expertise, and I truly do respect that as I mentioned earlier, but a few of you make me nervous, like you'd be more comfortable in the Old West, where anything more than a mouse fart will get you drawing on a tango down Main Street. Realistically, I'm going to anticipate a level of escalation in most confrontations.
The way I see it, there's only 2 ways a gunfight is going to go down on the streets:
a.) Less than lethal threat graduates to lethal threat with some level of warning.
>>>During such an escalation, I will have the ability to draw down, chamber a round, etc.
b.) Total surprise situation with a baseball bat to the head, or a thug with a pistol pops out from behind the bushes, aiming his weapon at me. He's got his muzzle to my face before I know what happens-
>>>In such a case, having a round in the chamber isn't going to help me one bit. Knowing that I have a round in the chamber might even sway my decision to draw when perhaps I really shouldn't. Those of you that think you're quick enough to draw when someone has a muzzle in your face, good luck with that. I'm a super-quick summammabich, but I'm not going for it unless the sun, the moon and the planets align, and the Spirit of the Lord gives me a gentle nudge to go for it.
Creature, I think you might be running my comments all together, and out of order, and they kinda' lose their context if you do that. I'm not talking about moving, blading, palm-heeling, ninja-rolling, and taking down multiples at night. I'm talking about the way it goes down in the street. Mugger comes walking with his buddy towards you at 3 a.m., asking "what- up- man", or "what time you got". My hand goes to my piece- but I don't draw down. My comments are something like "you got 3 seconds to get the **** outta here".
REAL LIFE SITUATION:
My father (58 years old, former Ranger) was driving through downtown Miami a few years ago in a rental vehicle. As is a common tactic, a car full of scum-bags rear-ended my father's car at low speed, while he was momentarily stopped at a stop sign. He saw the 3 or 4 guys moving around inside, and knew he'd likely be a victim. In a split second, he jumped out of the car, shoved his hand inside his jacket (LIKE HE WAS GOING FOR HIS WEAPON) and raised his free hand out, palm up, Al Pacino style. "What's up?" he was yelling to the guys. They spun their 20-inch rims, and drove off, cursing my dad, but not ready for a gunfight. He bluffed his way out, got back in his car, and left.
Not only did he NOT have a round in the chamber, he didn't have a piece, period. My point is that the credible threat of force is just as effective as force in most cases. While I'm certain he was lucky this time, its also important to note that this happened during a period of time in FL (recent) history where a number of Canadians, Europeans, and northerners were bumped like this, carjacked and subsequently KILLED in an identical set-up.
Carrying concealed is not the same as Marines on patrol, or a State Trooper flagging someone on I-95 with shifty characters behind the wheel. Unless you guys are walking the strip through bar-country with your pieces at 3:30 a.m. Then, yeah, I might chamber a round.
Just walking down by the beach in the afternoon, or whatnot, there's no way I need a round in the chamber in Wal Mart.
And I hope I never accidentally step on any of you guys' toes in Denny's at midnight. The way some of you guys talk, you've got trigger-pulls lighter than the 6-oz. sirloin.
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You live in never never land with Peter Pan. Now lets get real. Many BG's ain't scared of cops Do you really think you and you Alfa dog commands will impress them.
You might have 2 sec. if you lucky. The above crap won't wash in real life. Theirs no time and is gonna get you killed.
I have USED A 1911 AS A CIV for SD . I had time to draw, off the safety while raising the pistol (yes it can be done) and fireing . If I hadn't my wife would have been a widow
Been several SD shooting at Wally world last couple years Open you eyes.
As for your father sorry But he was a fool and lucky Don't bet you life on a bluff. Other guy may not bluff and have the winning hand A loaded pistol.
By way I am 61 and a Locked & Cocked Commander is on my hip as I type this. Be like a Boy Scout Always Prepaired . Not 1/2 way with a empty pistol.
JoeBlackSpade
New member
Actually, Monkeyboy, the way it was described to me, he started to get out of the car to assess the damage before realizing he was in a situation. By the time he realized it, he was standing by the door of the car, and saw the situation unfolding.
Anyway, as I said before, to each his own. Carrying a round in the chamber is totally unnecessary for the average joe. If you are ambushed by a gun wielding opponent, you can't draw anyway, and if you are NOT ambushed, but rather faced with a gradually unfolding situation, then you have time to draw, rack the slide, and take aim.
This idea that a round in the chamber will make a difference is false-
*UNLESS*
- you are a law enforcement officer making a traffic stop, or other specialized field.
Getting mugged can only go but so many ways. I'd be interested in reading some stats about how they go down- and whether or not chambering a round became a factor.
Anyway, as I said before, to each his own. Carrying a round in the chamber is totally unnecessary for the average joe. If you are ambushed by a gun wielding opponent, you can't draw anyway, and if you are NOT ambushed, but rather faced with a gradually unfolding situation, then you have time to draw, rack the slide, and take aim.
This idea that a round in the chamber will make a difference is false-
*UNLESS*
- you are a law enforcement officer making a traffic stop, or other specialized field.
Getting mugged can only go but so many ways. I'd be interested in reading some stats about how they go down- and whether or not chambering a round became a factor.
I would like to see data that supports that contention. I won't though because it doesn't exist. Some situations unfold quickly, others do not. You often don't decide how fast they unfold.
Can and has been done. Depends on the level of competence. To resign yourself to be at the mercy of the BG just because he has a gun on you is your decision. However, if your weapon is not ready, you cannot make that choice becuase carrying it in cond. 3 is like not carrying it at all.
Again, reality doesn't support your contention. Do some searching and you will discover that. Read The Ayoob Files, The Armed Citizen or other publications. What you are advocating is akin to not being armed at all.
Post #49: "I'm sorry, but I just don't have that much adrenaline, and intensity when I'm walking my dog in Lake Mary, FL."
Cond.1 carry doesn't require adrenaline, and carrying a gun requires every bit as much intensity in Cond.3, maybe more since it requires more action on your part and more vigilance to give you that extra time. It's like those who believe the world is only a few thousand years old. I don't believe that, but feel no compulsion to convert them to my my view of cosmology. If you want to carry with an empty chamber and the mag a couple of rounds down, by all means do what you're comfortable with. The 2 scenarios presented are not the only possibilities- there are an infinity of possible scenarios. It is a non-sequitor to suggest that taking the safety off will slow you down too much but feeding a round won't. I believe in simplicity, so I usually carry a point and shoot gun, auto or revolver. When I carry a .45 auto it's C&L, and I can disengage the safety while bringing it up to line of sight. The Israelis went for Cond.3 because they had a motley assortment of handguns and that works for any auto, while Cond.1 requires a manual of arms for the specific gun.
Cond.1 carry doesn't require adrenaline, and carrying a gun requires every bit as much intensity in Cond.3, maybe more since it requires more action on your part and more vigilance to give you that extra time. It's like those who believe the world is only a few thousand years old. I don't believe that, but feel no compulsion to convert them to my my view of cosmology. If you want to carry with an empty chamber and the mag a couple of rounds down, by all means do what you're comfortable with. The 2 scenarios presented are not the only possibilities- there are an infinity of possible scenarios. It is a non-sequitor to suggest that taking the safety off will slow you down too much but feeding a round won't. I believe in simplicity, so I usually carry a point and shoot gun, auto or revolver. When I carry a .45 auto it's C&L, and I can disengage the safety while bringing it up to line of sight. The Israelis went for Cond.3 because they had a motley assortment of handguns and that works for any auto, while Cond.1 requires a manual of arms for the specific gun.
Baba Louie
New member
Or your weak side arm is disabled or nullified in the initial ambush
WhiteFeather93
New member
Why bicker?
I'm not quite understanding why there is so much arguing going on. If a person does not feel comfortable in carrying any specific type of sidearm or carrying style then don't. If you don't like the 1911 don't carry it. If you don't like Glock don't carry it, its that simple. All of this justification has no end and no point. You could argue until you were blue in the face. There is no need to justify your preference. I believe the original post was about how happy someone was carrying that way. Well I'm glad you enjoy this new found freedom congradulations. If you feel comfortable and comfident then great! I carry my 1911 cocked and locked safety off.
Why? Because I feel comfortable doing so. Is it flawed? Could I get hurt? If I ever do I'll be sure to post and if its my time to join the big party than so be it and you can read all about it in the newspaper.
I'm not quite understanding why there is so much arguing going on. If a person does not feel comfortable in carrying any specific type of sidearm or carrying style then don't. If you don't like the 1911 don't carry it. If you don't like Glock don't carry it, its that simple. All of this justification has no end and no point. You could argue until you were blue in the face. There is no need to justify your preference. I believe the original post was about how happy someone was carrying that way. Well I'm glad you enjoy this new found freedom congradulations. If you feel comfortable and comfident then great! I carry my 1911 cocked and locked safety off.
Why? Because I feel comfortable doing so. Is it flawed? Could I get hurt? If I ever do I'll be sure to post and if its my time to join the big party than so be it and you can read all about it in the newspaper.Spade Cooley
Moderator
Why do you think Cops carry guns that are ready to rock and roll with a round in the chamber like revolvers and Glocks? Because they are ready to go. Granted, in a surprise attack you might not get off the first shot but first shots often miss and you could get off the second shot. Or you could be hit and still get off the second shot. Give yourself an advantage.
Been carrying full time anywhere that I can...it feels great.
Except the Kimber checkered grips are painful...I had to order some smooth ones. I can't sit in the truck with it on comfortably because it makes checkered patterns on my love handles. Very uncomfortable, yet beautiful.
I bought some cocobolo smooth grips from woodgrips.com. Very reasonable.....I can't wait.
I also bought a safe with a lock on it. When I come in from work, gun goes in the safe and the key goes around my neck. When we go to bed, the key goes into the safe and it is left locked so the kids can't waddle down at night and get into it. Deployable at a moment's notice and safe.
I am keeping the gun cocked and locked permanently and I discarded the round that I had chambered a couple times to be safe.
Houston, we have no problems. I carried to several public places (gas station, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.). No one was shot and I felt great exercising my rights.
The only problem is that the carry corset that I am wearing (belt) has to be cinched up so tight that I can hardly breathe. Otherwise the gun tends to flop...I need a better belt.
New
Except the Kimber checkered grips are painful...I had to order some smooth ones. I can't sit in the truck with it on comfortably because it makes checkered patterns on my love handles. Very uncomfortable, yet beautiful.
I bought some cocobolo smooth grips from woodgrips.com. Very reasonable.....I can't wait.
I also bought a safe with a lock on it. When I come in from work, gun goes in the safe and the key goes around my neck. When we go to bed, the key goes into the safe and it is left locked so the kids can't waddle down at night and get into it. Deployable at a moment's notice and safe.
I am keeping the gun cocked and locked permanently and I discarded the round that I had chambered a couple times to be safe.
Houston, we have no problems. I carried to several public places (gas station, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.). No one was shot and I felt great exercising my rights.
The only problem is that the carry corset that I am wearing (belt) has to be cinched up so tight that I can hardly breathe. Otherwise the gun tends to flop...I need a better belt.
New
It's really simple...
You just have to weigh the risks and calculate the odds.
Which is more likely...
1) Your NEED to carry cocked-and-locked and be ready to engage attackers in a split second...
OR
2) The possibility of your kid, or anyone else, getting their hands on your pistol and shooting themself or someone else.
If I worked 3rd shift at an interstate-exit gas station, I would carry cocked-and-locked.
But in my suburban home with my children?
No way.
But that's just me...you have to decide for yourself.
Some guys on this forum are law enforcement...I'm not.
You just have to weigh the risks and calculate the odds.
Which is more likely...
1) Your NEED to carry cocked-and-locked and be ready to engage attackers in a split second...
OR
2) The possibility of your kid, or anyone else, getting their hands on your pistol and shooting themself or someone else.
If I worked 3rd shift at an interstate-exit gas station, I would carry cocked-and-locked.
But in my suburban home with my children?
No way.
But that's just me...you have to decide for yourself.
Some guys on this forum are law enforcement...I'm not.
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kayakersteve
New member
The point some appear to be missing is that when the s..t hits the fan, it doesn't matter whether you are an 'average joe blo' or an elite special forces officer - If you are prepared to fight, (Gun with chambered round and ready to engage), you may win the fight. If you have to worry about chambering a round, you're toast! There is no effective alternative other than not carrying a weapon in my eyes. You either do it to be effective or don't do it.
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