Cocked and locked baby!

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Creature, carrying your weapon with a round in the chamber isn't necessary unless you are doing a TACTICAL ENTRY to serve a high risk warrant.


For me, its not about safety, its about using the weapon to defend yourself in the proper level of escalation.

A knife-wielding thug will likely be scared off by the ratcheting sound a slide makes when you chamber a round.

Carrying the piece with a round in the chamber certainly increases your readiness, by a fraction of a second, however, a street confrontation isn't likely to be over in a fraction of a second, unless your assailant has presented a loaded firearm- for whatever reason- BEFORE you were able to get to yours.

The key here is vigilance- and maybe a little street smarts. By street smarts, I'm not talking about being able to read subtle body language a half a mile away. I'm talking about staying out of situations where a gun fight will be likely.
 
Joe,

I think you are being a little naive in your thinking.

I would guarantee you that 90% or better of all muggings, stabbings, hold ups, etc. happen in a fraction of a second with only milliseconds to react.

The bad guys don't wear signs nor do they annonce their intentions (usually). No, they mill in nice and close to you and then it is over. Every second counts.

Now if I am walking in town, say walking the dog and I see someone coming my way I will adjust some way. I will give them a wide berth and if they adjust in kind, my radar goes up. Then I would make some evasive manouver before they got within striking distance.

However, say I am in any given City on a sidewalk, I can't do that to everyone. Crap happens in a fraction of a second, which is why I plan on carrying my gun C&L going forward.

But to each their own, not trying to tell you that you are wrong. However, most crime victims all say the same thing....they either never suspected him or never saw him coming.

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Well, as some wag put it long ago, if we could predict when we'd be subject to attack we'd arrange to be somewhere else. We aren't always afforded that luxury, no matter how finely honed our situational awareness. Sometimes trouble finds us.

Creature put it best. One, the 1911 was designed to be carried this way. Two, I'm not willing to blithely assume I'll have a free and functioning hand to work the slide. I may be shoving a kid under a car or trying to fend off the assailant, or I may be wounded, and playing hell just getting the weapon out of the holster.

Just one man's opinion and approach. Ah, well, more than one man's, I see.
 
JoeBlackSpade, have you ever heard of the "21 ft rule"?

If not, perhaps you should research it. I believe that Condition 3 carry would put that rule out to about 35-40ft...maybe more.

Saying that Condition 1 carry is only for a tactical entry...and that racking a gun will scare off a knife-wielding attacker, is pretty narrow minded. You will be lucky to see a knife in a mugging before it is being used to strike you.

And assuming that you will have both hands free...well I know what happens when I assume.
 
kayaker,
Like an above poster stated, recycling the same round more than a couple of times can cause it to set back. This can lead to excessive pressure and, well, you can guess the rest.

Try drawing and racking and see just how long it takes to get the gun into action. Triple check that it's empty and have a friend advance toward you at a moderate then quick pace. The results may surprise you.
 
THis subject has been beaten to death. Yet I am still amazed at the attitude of some.

I carry on an empty chamber. I look at it this way...step one is pulling your weapon on a BG. Step two is racking the slide. If that doesn't send him packing, step three is aim & fire!
Except step one for the bad guy is to shoot you. If you carry an unloaded pistol, you have a very fancy, expensive brick. Typically when you need a pistol to defend yourself, time is at a premium. If you are not comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, carry something else.

Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush. If you do things right, the display of confidence you exhibit, as well as the display of the weapon and the sound of chambering a round will dissuade anyone thinking about making you his midnight snack.

Nothing personal Joe, but what are you smoking? A firearm should never be used as a deterrent. It should only be used (drawn or displayed) when someone is in danger of serious injury or death. In the time it takes you to exhibit the confidence you are so proud of, then chambering a round, a BG can put a couple of rounds your way.

By racking your slide, you create that unmistakeable metal on metal sound, informing your attacker that you mean business.
You also create the unmistakeable opportunity for the BG to shoot you.

Racking the slide takes a fraction of a second if you are training at the range this way.
That fraction is on the order of 1/2. That is long enough for a shooter of intermediate abilty to fire 2 rounds. In a defensive situation, the ability to put lead on the target quickly is the single most important skill.

I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Tactically unsound and unneccessary. You aren't saving any "wear and tear" on the springs, you are only limiting your round capacity. Modern magazine springs can be left loaded for extended periods (years) without any negative effect.

Loading/unloading the gun every day is not unsafe. If you follow the 4 basic safety rules, you will be fine.

If you aren't comfortable carrying cocked and locked, you should give serious consideration to carrying a different firearm or maybe not at all.
 
Not beating the joe up, because I once thought like he did.

My decision came for me from watching Under Fire, a show on CourtTV which shows actual police encounters where they have been fired on and fired back in response. Most were surprises and most of the time the cop was hit before he could even draw on the suspect.

My wife actually mentioned the fact that had I been the cop, I wouldn't have time to rack the slide and I thought "you are darned right!".

I was also amazed at the ability of some of these perps to run away, holding their pants up with one hand, evading fire all the while, and returning what seemingly is a very impressive hit ratio to shots fired. They may be dumb as hell but they can shoot pretty well. It amazes me that a perp with a J frame can hit and kill an officer who is behind a car but a couple squad cars worth of police can't manage to hit the perp, despite shooting several times each.

I think that we CCWr's are sometimes guilty of thinking that any situation where we have to shoot someone will be a controlled situation where we have plenty of time and ability to rationalize and react. I think we also subconsciously believe that the target will stand still and remain at a 20 foot range. None of this could be farther from the truth of course.

Bottom line, cocked and locked is safe (excluding the ammo problem) and isn't going to be the reason I die. I will, of course, have to take extreme precautions to make sure of no ND on unloading or loading.

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You can't easily drop the slide on a chambered round with a 1911 because the 1911 is designed for the lip of the round to slide up from the magazine and enter behind the hook on the extractor. The round is attached to the extractor by the pressure of the extractor hook on the lip of the round and the extractor is attached to the slide in such a way that the round and the slide move forward together and the round is chambered as everything comes into battery.

If you place a round in the barrel chamber and try to drop the slide over that round, the extractor hook has to force itself around and over the lip of the round. This stresses the extractor in a way that it was not designed for and can break the extractor or prevent the slide from completely closing. Some guns are designed to be able to load a single round without the magazine in this manner, some are not. The 1911 was not.

As for racking the slide during a confrontation...There's a lot of discussion about the effectiveness of this in a real life situation...is it really a deterrent...will you have two hands free at the time....I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment. Under stress, you may not pull the slide completely back since you are feeling rushed...this can cause a jam or misfeed. Also, Murphy's Law. The whole point of CCW is having AT LEAST one guaranteed round to fire. Having to chamber a round at that very important moment increases your physical and the gun's mechanical movements and actions...thus increasing the likelihood of a failure to fire.
 
Condition 3 is safe for you and the bad guy.

Loading and unloading your pistol is exponentially increasing your chances of an AD.

Hmmm. Last time I checked - I am not worried about the BG's safety. In fact that is the least of my concerns. My family and personal safety are paramount.

As long as you properly obey at all times - firearm safety rules - keep your finger off the trigger UNTIL your sights are on target - your chances of AD are nil.

Training is the key to zero ADs.

Hooch in BHD: This is my safety sir......
 
Hmmm. Last time I checked - I am not worried about the BG's safety

I think that monkeyboy was being a bit sarcastic in his statement concerning condition 3 and it's safety for you and the bad guy. It gives the BG extra time to do you harm, making it safer for him.

But maybe I'm wrong.
 
I think that we CCWr's are sometimes guilty of thinking that any situation where we have to shoot someone will be a controlled situation where we have plenty of time and ability to rationalize and react. I think we also subconsciously believe that the target will stand still and remain at a 20 foot range. None of this could be farther from the truth of course.

I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment.

Some very good points.

It's hard to prepare for an encounter b/c you don't know who/what/when/where/why or how. That leaves you to do what you can to mitigate the perceived threat. Carrying locked & cocked does it for me most of the time. A back-up revolver, flashlight & knife help, but sometimes you just have to make due with what you're comfortable carrying.
There have been plenty of times at the range where I let the slide go and it either jammed or didn't chamber a round. I certainly would not want this to happen in a SD situation.
 
Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush.
I would say if you are pulling you CH, you have already been "ambushed" by a BG...you will be lucky if you can say you were merely "confronted".

The biggest concern is as random alias pointed out:
As for racking the slide during a confrontation...There's a lot of discussion about the effectiveness of this in a real life situation...is it really a deterrent...will you have two hands free at the time....I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment.

As for downloading the mag by a few rounds:
I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Modern springs do not "wear out" from constant compression. They wear out from constant and repeated compression and decompression.
 
I guess it depends upon where you live and the odds of needing to shoot quickly.
If you live in a nice neighborhood and you're not a cop, I really don't see the need to carry locked-and-cocked.

Because things happen slower in good neighborhoods than bad? Does that mean that if a nice house burns down you have more time to get out than if it's a dump of a house? I guess I just don't understand this logic. Your surroundings can have no effect on how fast a specific incident is going to unfold. Once it starts happening your location becomes completely irrelevent.
 
I stand on what I said before and say the 1911 in any condition is too slow for any emergency. If it's taking a safety off or racking the slide, you will be dead meat before you can fire. The packing of a simple pistol where all you have to do is draw and pull the trigger is what you want. In emergencies people get shook up and forget to take the safety off or rack a slide. It all takes too long. Draw and pull the trigger is the only answer.
 
To each his own...

I respect your views guys, I really do.

I guess I was trained to think a little differently.

I DO agree that one can safely carry a 1911 that way.

I just don't agree that it is necessary.

Let's take the "knife-wielding looney" out of the equation. Lets' say there are 3 big guys coming right at you after initially milling about close by. In this case, I'm drawing and racking my slide, taking aim at the closest, and giving clear verbal commands. In low light conditions this is the best thing you can do. The combination of ratchet-sound, and clear verbal commands will establish dominance. That ratchet sound WILL discourage just about anybody that isn't doped up or out of their mind on meth, etc., and it might be that extra "oomph" needed due to low light- when verbal commands just won't do it by themselves.

Thing is, I feel C&L is just not necessary. If an assailant is going to close in THAT fast, then a round in the chamber won't make a difference. IMHO, one should train to go from Condition 3, holstered to 2 rounds center mass in less than 2 seconds. A thug closing in faster than that, with clear intent to harm is unlikely, but can be repelled with a straight (or slightly upwards-directed) palm-heel to the chest/chin, using your weak/non-draw/free hand. The straight palm-heel strike gets an extra meter between your assailant and your weapon, and is combined with BLADING your body away from the attacker. This puts not only your extended arm between your attacker and your weapon, but this also puts YOUR OWN BODY between the attacker and your weapon. With practice, you can train to fire from this position, with your weapon virtually resting high on your pectoral muscle, elbow cocked way back. This was standard weapons-retention training for me as a Marine, and is also taught to Maryland State Police, United States Park Police SWAT, and others in the same way.

The idea of one hand being occupied in an unexpected grapple with a thug-and therefore unavailable to cycle the slide- is a genuine and respectable concern. Personally I have confidence in being able to do what I need to do to get a round off if needed, whether I have a hand free or not. One could (and should) not only practice chambering drills, with one arm behind the back, weak-arm operation of their firearm, as well as standard strong-arm operation, and that includes drills on what to do in the event of failure to fire/failure to feed/stovepipes, etc.

I know a few drills for single handed chambering, if anyone is interested.

As I always say, practice practice practice.

Much of the fear/apprehension about being able to handle yourself in the event of a gunfight will be alleviated by practice and training.
 
"Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush. If you do things right, the display of confidence you exhibit, as well as the display of the weapon and the sound of chambering a round will dissuade anyone thinking about making you his midnight snack."

"Nothing personal Joe, but what are you smoking? A firearm should never be used as a deterrent. It should only be used (drawn or displayed) when someone is in danger of serious injury or death."

No disagreement there- at least in a general sense. What I think we've been talking about is the process of going past that point. It's in that strange, funky escalation of tension in an encounter, where the threat is gathering- and building. What I believe is not being considered is that an encounter on the streets will not be a neat, tidy event that fits a textbook definition. It's not bad guy pops out of the bushes, and *boom*, I pop him. There's an escalation of force involved in most street encounters. Somewhere in that escalation, there should be verbal commands, placing your hand on your (holstered) weapon, more verbal commands, drawing and going to condition one, etc.



"In the time it takes you to exhibit the confidence you are so proud of, then chambering a round, a BG can put a couple of rounds your way."

True, if you're getting held up at gunpoint, in which case condition 1 won't make much difference than cond. 3. That becomes a race between you (drawing, acquiring sight picture, and squeezing off a round) and your mugger's trigger finger. In such an instance, only your brains are going to get you out alive, and the fact that you have a round in the chamber can do nothing except give you a false sense of security.



Quote:By racking your slide, you create that unmistakable metal on metal sound, informing your attacker that you mean business.

"You also create the unmistakable opportunity for the BG to shoot you."

Again, that's in the case your assailant is holding you at gunpoint. Obviously, drawing your weapon on someone holding you at gunpoint-in 99% of cases- will get you shot. In such cases, cond.1 vs. cond.3 won't make a bit of difference. I'm talking about the multitude of other cases (read: more likely) where your concealed piece can save your life, i.e., knifepoint, faced with an assailant brandishing an improvised weapon, or numerically superior assailants. In such cases, I'm drawing, racking my slide and taking aim. Just because you draw does NOT mean you have to shoot.

Quote:
Racking the slide takes a fraction of a second if you are training at the range this way.

That fraction is on the order of 1/2. That is long enough for a shooter of intermediate abilty to fire 2 rounds. In a defensive situation, the ability to put lead on the target quickly is the single most important skill.

Again, if you are being held AT GUNPOINT, sure, he can squeeze off 2 rounds while you draw, rack, sight in, sqeeze off your rounds. And like I said before, the fact that you have a round in the chamber on your hip won't make a bit of difference. If you go for the "quick-draw" while someone's muzzle is in your face, you're taking a huge risk regardless of whether you're carrying Cond. 1 or Cond. 3.

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I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Tactically unsound and unneccessary. You aren't saving any "wear and tear" on the springs, you are only limiting your round capacity. Modern magazine springs can be left loaded for extended periods (years) without any negative effect.


I disagree with that statement. Maxing out the capacity of your magazines, and storing ammunition that way is not only bad for your springs, but it can also create a dangerous situation. If you constantly carry your mags fully loaded, and then you one day have to empty that mag, you're more likely to face a failure to feed while trying to fire the last few rounds in that mag, and possibly a misfeed in the 1911, as well as many other "modern" weapons, including any Pre-ban mag, i.e. the 15 rounder in a 92FS. These are problems you wouldn't face if the springs in the mag are new, and still have their full tension. A magazine at full capacity should be discharged or have the rounds removed while in storage if you want to not only maximize the life of the springs, but also decrease your chances of failure to fire/feed. I've shot thousands of rounds through the M9 (92FS), 1911, my .40 and .45 Ruger, a Glock 17 & 19, and other small weapons over the years. A weakened spring in any of the mags can, and has (on exceptionally rare occasion- admittedly) led to misfeeds.



If you aren't comfortable carrying cocked and locked, you should give serious consideration to carrying a different firearm or maybe not at all.

I don't know if that comment was directed at me, or not, but I never said anything about "comfort", nor did I reference safety as a concern. In fact, I explicitly stated that I'm not worried about safety on this class of weapon, and carrying it C&L. My position is that it is unecessary if you are training properly, unless you are a law enforcement officer, or work under environments where you'd have to minimize the time from drawing to firing. An example of this type of person might be a State Trooper, Sheriff, etc. For the safety conscious citizen, walking through the waterfront district, etc., I believe you don't need a round in the chamber.
 
The 1911 was designed to be carried in Cond 1. In the safe position the safety blocks the hammer from making contact with the firing pin shoud the impossible happen and something holding the hammer back breaks. In Cond 3 you are taking the chance (however small) that the first round may not feed properly. In Cond 1 that 1st round is up the spout and ready to go. I have seen the idea that the sound of racking the action will cause the BG to immediately wet his knickers and depart at warp speed beaten to death in shotgun threads. I don't carry a gun to scare people. If I need a gun to defend my life I need every round it will carry. It can be argued whether there is time to feed the first round and give verbal commands and otherwise dither in face of deadly threat, but if my life is in danger the time for talking or scaring the BG is past- it's time to present and fire. For the record I carry a Steyr S9, but for those times when I carry a .45 I go cocked and locked (ref. Psalm 1911).
 
Condition 3 is more of a liability than a safety issue. The locked and cocked argument has been done to death...the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1 and is completely safe in that condition...it is also the quickest method of employment.
Amen, bro.

Think about this: a DAO pistol with a safety, and one in the tube, is also "cocked and locked." A Glock with one in the tube is cocked and UN-locked. That is the only thing I don't like about Glocks.
 
Well, I am going to think about things like this.

I can think of nothing worse than going up against a police officer who is trained well in both tactics, training, and how to get the upper hand. Yet punks go up against cops all the time. Cops have their guns loaded and ready to use every second of every day. I don't think that if punks will take on a cop, the racking of my slide will change anything. I think that while I am racking, the punk will be shooting. That's the nature of punks. Maybe you get lucky and happen to get the unmotivated criminal that will scare easily. The fact of their behavior tells me that they won't.

I am not going to nock anyone for carrying any way they want...perhaps despite the half-cocked position with one in the chamber!

I think that Condi 1 is best for me now and just as safe.

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