shootniron
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He was through the window and in the car.
She was justified in the way she felt.
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Close call today
- Thread starter Scatcatt
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He was through the window and in the car.
She was justified in the way she felt.
The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal. So, in this regard, no harm, no foul. Maybe not ideal, but, well, pushing your head in someone's car is asking for trouble. Of course, situational awareness would've helped but realistically, you can't avoid all interactions with people.
If someone walks up to your car and knocks on your window, you're going to roll it down a bit to hear what they want. Mostly it's panhandlers, but you get all sorts of people. Sometimes it's someone genuinely asking instructions, wanting to sell me things, wanting to tell me my light isn't working - all sorts. Once I was stopped by a guy who returned me some cash I dropped when rummaging for the car keys (there are well intentoned people,too). However, sometimes you get people who are obviously not right in the head, and in my view, when it's someone not wired properly, it's better to be nice and resolve it peacefully, especially if you have a gun on you.
Although I do not normally carry a gun (permits for carry in my country are rarely given and I don't feel some sort of need which would compel me to go through all the red tape involved), every sunday and some saturdays I drive to the range, naturally, with my guns in the bag beside me. So, this guy walks in our parking lot and first stops a neighbour's car - he was also going somewhere - neighbour drives away with this guy waving arms and cursing after him - and then stops mine and knocks on the window. I get this mixed up story about him being a war veteran and hungry children and all that, but I get the hint of desperation in the man's voice.
Sure, I could tell him to bugger off, put my hand on the gun, or I don't know what. However, he sounded like a desperate man who might actually turn to violence (as opposed to 'agressive' panhandlers which try to intimidate). His story might be true or might not be true, but I'd rather not get in a fight while having a gun and in the end shoot someone over small change. A man would be killed, in plain sight of my daughter, I would face years of fighting in court, and so on. Some change and he was genuinely grateful and walked off. I may have helped someone, and if I didn't, at least, avoided an altercation while armed. If you carry a gun, it's up to you to behave to a higher standard.
If someone walks up to your car and knocks on your window, you're going to roll it down a bit to hear what they want. Mostly it's panhandlers, but you get all sorts of people. Sometimes it's someone genuinely asking instructions, wanting to sell me things, wanting to tell me my light isn't working - all sorts. Once I was stopped by a guy who returned me some cash I dropped when rummaging for the car keys (there are well intentoned people,too). However, sometimes you get people who are obviously not right in the head, and in my view, when it's someone not wired properly, it's better to be nice and resolve it peacefully, especially if you have a gun on you.
Although I do not normally carry a gun (permits for carry in my country are rarely given and I don't feel some sort of need which would compel me to go through all the red tape involved), every sunday and some saturdays I drive to the range, naturally, with my guns in the bag beside me. So, this guy walks in our parking lot and first stops a neighbour's car - he was also going somewhere - neighbour drives away with this guy waving arms and cursing after him - and then stops mine and knocks on the window. I get this mixed up story about him being a war veteran and hungry children and all that, but I get the hint of desperation in the man's voice.
Sure, I could tell him to bugger off, put my hand on the gun, or I don't know what. However, he sounded like a desperate man who might actually turn to violence (as opposed to 'agressive' panhandlers which try to intimidate). His story might be true or might not be true, but I'd rather not get in a fight while having a gun and in the end shoot someone over small change. A man would be killed, in plain sight of my daughter, I would face years of fighting in court, and so on. Some change and he was genuinely grateful and walked off. I may have helped someone, and if I didn't, at least, avoided an altercation while armed. If you carry a gun, it's up to you to behave to a higher standard.
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zincwarrior
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I also don't personally see this as a real incident. The guy was rude and make the OP uncomfortable, but all he needed was a verbal response to leave. I've encountered more insistent panhandlers than this.
I agree 100% which is why I agree with getting training but I also am concerned that a relatively new concealed carry holder was ready to draw and saw that as a reasonable response. When no physical or verbal threat was present. I am also alarmed that so few people seem concerned with that.
__________________
Indeed.
OldMarksman
Staff
At least one person who did that to an armed robber is serving a life sentence for first degree murder.....I have been told if its worth shooting, shoot till down and dead
Scattcatt,
I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you.
Action is faster than reaction. If you were to allow a bad guy to get that close to you, you might want to pray that he's merely soliciting for his school.
I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you.
Action is faster than reaction. If you were to allow a bad guy to get that close to you, you might want to pray that he's merely soliciting for his school.
Can't live in a bubble, had the window down to order which if you don't your just talking to youself right? Happened quickly according to the op yet she was aware enough in that second or two to realize that this situation wasn't right ie...normal people do not act in that matter, had her hand on the tool that could save her if the moment turned south but at the same time had enough composure not to panick and prematurely engage this party with that tool when ultimately he walked away, all of which it sounds like took place in seconds. Situational awareness? I think she did pretty well.
I have to agree. From the sounds of it, there was time to get her hand on the tool, and it was very questionable as to whether there was time to get the window up, and probably complete doubt as to whether there was time to do both. She probably never had time to think of step two, which is had the guy had more sinister intentions, would that window have helped or further put her in harm's way? He could be unarmed, he could have a knife, he could have a brick, or he could have a gun. That drivers side window might not be an asset in every situation and it might have drawn a different response from the guy.
Situational awareness is great, but if it were 100% effective, we wouldn't need the gun.
She was aware of the situation before it happened, and managed to be prepared for it by the time it did, and will probably be a lot more aware when in a drive up of any kind in the future. I'm sure she has run it through her head a thousand times in hindsight, and seems to be satisfied with the way she handled it, so I'll be a cheerleader.
I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you.
Do you ever go anywhere with people? Ever pass through doorways? Wait in line? Because when you do you're close enough for people to touch you, and they're not bad guys until they do something to let you know.
Strong situational awareness could have prevented the entire incident IMHO.
I view the glass as half full instead of half empty. I would say OP's strong situation awareness did prevent an incident.
Yes she could have eaten with the windows up. She could have gone somewhere else. She could have stayed home. She could have hid under her car to eat. But what would be the fun in that? I don't call overly cautious behavior situational awareness. I call it cautious OCD, or living in fear.
We each get to choose how we balance the risks of life.
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Limnophile
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^ Exactly. The best situational awareness, taking some of the arguments presented herein to their ultimate conclusion, is to stay home behind barricaded doors and windows.
Drive-in restaurants are designed to require the patron to roll down his window. I suppose you could take delivery of the food through the sunroof, or, worse, by opening the door. I've eaten at Sonic in three locations, and none of them were seedy. I doubt many are.
I don't regard the incident under discussion as a defensive gun use, because at no time did the panhandler/potential perp know Scattcat had a weapon. He may have deduced the fact from the target and holster on the passenger's seat, but I think a weapon needs to be at least brandished to count as a DGU. And given that the incident is not a DGU, I see nothing to criticize.
Drive-in restaurants are designed to require the patron to roll down his window. I suppose you could take delivery of the food through the sunroof, or, worse, by opening the door. I've eaten at Sonic in three locations, and none of them were seedy. I doubt many are.
I don't regard the incident under discussion as a defensive gun use, because at no time did the panhandler/potential perp know Scattcat had a weapon. He may have deduced the fact from the target and holster on the passenger's seat, but I think a weapon needs to be at least brandished to count as a DGU. And given that the incident is not a DGU, I see nothing to criticize.
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Pond James Pond
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also I have been told if its worth shooting, shoot till down and dead
Ye gads....
Hideously bad advice, IMO.
Once the threat has gone, anything more could potentially be judged as attempted or actual murder.
I would strike that advice from your consciousness forthwith.
It is bad advice. Don't use it, don't impart it.
Ye gads....
Hideously bad advice, IMO.
Once the threat has gone, anything more could potentially be judged as attempted or actual murder.
I would strike that advice from your consciousness forthwith.
It is bad advice. Don't use it, don't impart it.
Agreed. 100%
The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal.
Wearing a hoodie and sticking your head into a stranger's car asking for money is a very aggressive act. Personally, I would have punched him (because I can and can inflict considerable pain), and I might have drawn my gun if I couldn't pound on him enough to get him to leave. This is one instance where I could see drawing my gun, give a loud warning and not shoot if at all possible. The reason is because, while he has his head in your car, you really do have a bit more control over the situation; at least until you see him reach for a knife or gun, or try and open your door.
TunnelRat,
Your post is very false dichotomy. Yours represents a person voluntarily moving among others. The other is allowing an unknown person to invade personal space of another.
While I am not paranoid, I do pay attention to my environments. If I see potential threats, I avoid them.
The reality, though, is you've assuredly postured yourself in this thread and will seek most tenuous rhetoric in effort to defend it.
Your post is very false dichotomy. Yours represents a person voluntarily moving among others. The other is allowing an unknown person to invade personal space of another.
While I am not paranoid, I do pay attention to my environments. If I see potential threats, I avoid them.
The reality, though, is you've assuredly postured yourself in this thread and will seek most tenuous rhetoric in effort to defend it.
zincwarrior
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Quote:
The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal.
Wearing a hoodie and sticking your head into a stranger's car asking for money is a very aggressive act. Personally, I would have punched him (because I can and can inflict considerable pain), and I might have drawn my gun if I couldn't pound on him enough to get him to leave. This is one instance where I could see drawing my gun, give a loud warning and not shoot if at all possible. The reason is because, while he has his head in your car, you really do have a bit more control over the situation; at least until you see him reach for a knife or gun, or try and open your door.
To play Devil's advocate, on what legal basis are you justified in committing battery, let alone threatening with a deadly weapon?
Your post is very false dichotomy. Yours represents a person voluntarily moving among others. The other is allowing an unknown person to invade personal space of another.
The only point at which the man in the hoodie entered the OP's personal space was when he stuck his head in the car. She was parked in the lot of a Sonic. The lot itself is not her personal space and people walk through the parking lots of restaurants, chain and otherwise. When you are driving around in a car you are very much still in the public voluntarily and people can be as close to you as walking directly next to your car, at a distance of inches from you. You're right that the car affords you a larger bubble of personal space, but I disagree that it's completely different from the other situations I brought up. In this instance and others people can be close enough to touch you, which seemed to be your benchmark.
While I am not paranoid, I do pay attention to my environments. If I see potential threats, I avoid them.
I never called you paranoid nor do I think that people that try to maintain situational awareness are paranoid. What I did was point out the limitations of living in a society where we daily interact with other people. The very nature of being in that society means that people are within striking distance of you. Until those same people do something to let you know of their intentions, they could be completely benign or they could be malicious. There are plenty of examples of robberies and assaults where the aggressor was able to maintain the element of surprise. I'm not saying it's a lost cause and to just give up on being situationally aware; I'm saying there will always remain the possibility of being surprised.
The reality, though, is you've assuredly postured yourself in this thread and will seek most tenuous rhetoric in effort to defend it.
What I've expressed in this thread is what I have learned and what I believe. Others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments, nor is anything I've said that divergent from the instruction anyone could receive from a number of self defense academies or disciplines. If that meets your definition of posturing, there's nothing more I can say along those lines.
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