Pistolenschutze
New member
Torture? If they really wanted to get tough, they'd hire some of the ARVN guys I met in the Nam. NVA prisoners had a tendency to talk plenty after an "off the record" session with one of them.
CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described
- Thread starter Gary H
- Start date
MicroBalrog
New member
People have also been doing other things for millenia - slavery, religious persecution, witchunts.
The fact people do it doesn't mean it's good.
And yes. The people who are being tortured [IF the report is true] aren't CONVICTS.
They are SUSPECT.
This means ALL OF THEM are INNOCENT until proven guilty.
That's off the subject. Regardless of moral implications, harsh interrogation is clearly effective.
And since these terrorists are not covered by the Geneva convention, they are liable for summary execution when caught. Interrogation is a much lighter penalty then death.
What utter nonsense. To say that the enemy leaders have no valuable information destroys the credibility of your argument.
Harsh Interogations?
What the poor bleeding heart liberals have a tendancy to forget is these people are not in US Custody for jay walking. Yes they should be protected to a point by the Constitution but only to representation and a fair trial. As far as cruel and unusal punishment goes. I haven't seen a thing. Because if their methods save US soldiers lives or the lives of innocent people around the world, I will personally start growing bamboo for thier finger nails. These are the thugs of the world. They will blow up a night club just because there is 1 western person in there, reguardless of the rest of the people. I say do what we have to do, to put a leash on this scum of the earth, because there is no stopping them. But hopefully we can prevent them from doing too much harm. They are a danger to everyone on the planet , unless of course you agree with thier way of thinking.
What the poor bleeding heart liberals have a tendancy to forget is these people are not in US Custody for jay walking. Yes they should be protected to a point by the Constitution but only to representation and a fair trial. As far as cruel and unusal punishment goes. I haven't seen a thing. Because if their methods save US soldiers lives or the lives of innocent people around the world, I will personally start growing bamboo for thier finger nails. These are the thugs of the world. They will blow up a night club just because there is 1 western person in there, reguardless of the rest of the people. I say do what we have to do, to put a leash on this scum of the earth, because there is no stopping them. But hopefully we can prevent them from doing too much harm. They are a danger to everyone on the planet , unless of course you agree with thier way of thinking.
Whitefalls
New member
The detainees have no useful information for us? Um... you know this how?
I have a hard time seeing how enemy combatants don't have any information thats of use to our military.
You say we need to do what it takes to win the war, and then say we shouldn't use every means possible to get vital information... of course, denying that they have that information is a nice way of side stepping that problem.
I have a hard time seeing how enemy combatants don't have any information thats of use to our military.
You say we need to do what it takes to win the war, and then say we shouldn't use every means possible to get vital information... of course, denying that they have that information is a nice way of side stepping that problem.
Whitefalls,
Perhaps 'no useful information' is a poor choice of words. They do have some information that is generally of no strategic or tactical value. I mean think about it: If you capture a guy from a half-ass ragtag unit, what info do you think he's going to know? These bands are largely compartmented and disorganized.
And that's my point. If you torture him (or even if you do what some would consider to be torture) then you will extract whatever little he may know. But you can't trust it either, because he might be telling you what he thinks you want to hear.
So you get this info, but the method deeply angers the grandma who lives downstairs from where the mid-level guys were coordinating efforts. And now she's not going to come to you and tell you the really helpful intel.
But if that's too complicated a scenario, I'll go along with Rebar's scenario (although I strongly disagree). Just to get the point across.
Say that the outcome of this war really is going to be decided by our 'liberal press' and popular opinion rather than on the ground in Iraq. You know
that this sort of behavior merely plays into your enemy's (the liberals) hands. So in extracting this information, you are jeopardizing the entire war effort.
Do you get at all what I'm trying to get across? If there's any other way to extract the info then do it. But don't jeopardize the mission.
Perhaps 'no useful information' is a poor choice of words. They do have some information that is generally of no strategic or tactical value. I mean think about it: If you capture a guy from a half-ass ragtag unit, what info do you think he's going to know? These bands are largely compartmented and disorganized.
And that's my point. If you torture him (or even if you do what some would consider to be torture) then you will extract whatever little he may know. But you can't trust it either, because he might be telling you what he thinks you want to hear.
So you get this info, but the method deeply angers the grandma who lives downstairs from where the mid-level guys were coordinating efforts. And now she's not going to come to you and tell you the really helpful intel.
But if that's too complicated a scenario, I'll go along with Rebar's scenario (although I strongly disagree). Just to get the point across.
Say that the outcome of this war really is going to be decided by our 'liberal press' and popular opinion rather than on the ground in Iraq. You know
that this sort of behavior merely plays into your enemy's (the liberals) hands. So in extracting this information, you are jeopardizing the entire war effort.
Do you get at all what I'm trying to get across? If there's any other way to extract the info then do it. But don't jeopardize the mission.
BreacherUp!
New member
Disagree in part. Most of your "line fighters" will not have strategic info, but will certainly have tactical info (i.e location of IEDs, safe houses, others involved, routes in/out, location of weapons, etc, etc). In addition, their info may lead to the capture of someone who does have strategic info (i.e letters from AQ leaders to Zarqawi and vice versa stating long term plans).
And again, corroboration is the key.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Of course it works in procuring both true AND false confessions, and has throughout the ages, just as many thousands confessed to being witches during the cruel Spanish Inquisition tortures.
You mean, kinda like: "What's your name?" "[correct answer]". "OK, now are you a witch?" [while applying bamboo to fingernails] "Yes I am!" Yep, that theory holds up. Not.
That'd be MY room 101.
Breacher,
Yeah, but by the time you've got him sequestered in a CIA secret prison and processed the paperwork to employ "harsh interrogation", collected, disseminated, and verified the data... too much time has passed for that knowledge to be of any help. By that time the IED has already exploded or the safe house is evacuated.
You're better off being on the good side of the 12 year old kid that saw them plant the IED in the first place or the cab driver who noticed them setting up the safe house. And they're not gonna talk to you if word gets out you're torturing people.
See what I mean?
Also, we already went through this last year with Abu Ghraib. Know what the commander of that base said? He said that he got his best intel not by torturing detainees, but by treating them decently.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't like playing patty-cake with someone who would cut my head off if the situation was reversed. But the mission always comes first and that means you do what you gotta do.
You partisan righties know as well as I that the liberals are having a field day with this. Don't you think it makes more sense to conduct the war in a fashion that doesn't give them ammunition?
The rest of you replace 'liberals' with 'insurgents'. Same question.
Yeah, but by the time you've got him sequestered in a CIA secret prison and processed the paperwork to employ "harsh interrogation", collected, disseminated, and verified the data... too much time has passed for that knowledge to be of any help. By that time the IED has already exploded or the safe house is evacuated.
You're better off being on the good side of the 12 year old kid that saw them plant the IED in the first place or the cab driver who noticed them setting up the safe house. And they're not gonna talk to you if word gets out you're torturing people.
See what I mean?
Also, we already went through this last year with Abu Ghraib. Know what the commander of that base said? He said that he got his best intel not by torturing detainees, but by treating them decently.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't like playing patty-cake with someone who would cut my head off if the situation was reversed. But the mission always comes first and that means you do what you gotta do.
You partisan righties know as well as I that the liberals are having a field day with this. Don't you think it makes more sense to conduct the war in a fashion that doesn't give them ammunition?
The rest of you replace 'liberals' with 'insurgents'. Same question.
If the purpose of the torture is to extract confessions, then yeah, that's what you'll get, true or false. If you're purpose is to extract useful information, and you know what you're about, then that's what you'll get. There's a world of difference between those senarios, it's an apples to oranges comparison.
Nonsense. Find out who the guy's leader is, catch that guy and find out who his leader is, get that guy and find out where all his subordinates are, who's supplying the arms, money, safehouses etc. It's a big jigsaw puzzle, once you get enough pieces in place the picture starts to emerge, then you can do real damage to their orgainzation. It's the only way we're going to be able to take the offense against them, sitting around waiting for them to attack is stupid.
Rebar,
Do you seriously think that we can defeat them by going after the leaders of a decentralized force? In yer dreams. There's 5 more heads on this hydra before the one you just lopped off has had time to cool.
The way you beat an insurgency is by alienating the population from them. Always has been and always will be. They will wither and collapse under their own weight without the legions of volunteers, the aid and comfort, and the collective protection that we are stupidly driving into their arms.
Do you seriously think that we can defeat them by going after the leaders of a decentralized force? In yer dreams. There's 5 more heads on this hydra before the one you just lopped off has had time to cool.
The way you beat an insurgency is by alienating the population from them. Always has been and always will be. They will wither and collapse under their own weight without the legions of volunteers, the aid and comfort, and the collective protection that we are stupidly driving into their arms.
DonR101395
New member
So where are the "harsh" techniques? With the exception of water boarding all of those were used on me during SERE training. I especially liked being in a cold cell being doused with water while listening to the Dead kennedys.
"If you capture a guy from a half-ass ragtag unit, what info do you think he's going to know? "
"Enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets "
Not some random clown from a half assed unit, this is being done to a dozen "high value targets".
"Torture alienates the local populace from our efforts and is thus counterproductive."
"a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe."
The only reason the local populace even knows this is happening is because the American new media let them know about it in this story.
"Enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets "
Not some random clown from a half assed unit, this is being done to a dozen "high value targets".
"Torture alienates the local populace from our efforts and is thus counterproductive."
"a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe."
The only reason the local populace even knows this is happening is because the American new media let them know about it in this story.
Indeed. Someone is recruiting them, bringing them into Iraq, arming them, giving them missions, etc. Someone knows where the inflitration routes are, someone knows where the training camps are, there's plenty to know, and knowing it would break the back of the terrorists, or at least damage them enough that the Iraqis can take over the fight.
BreacherUp!
New member
No. Anyone who is captured is immediately questioned regarding tactical intel (hence, the phrase tactical interrogation), specifically threats against friendly forces.
You cannot have just one source of intel, or just one way of collecting it. Just smiling and passing out lollipops isn't going to work with everybody. Some want to see that our forces are tough, and therefor the fear of the insurgents winning is diminished (much the same way Iraqis waited until Saddam was actually caught). Might and power in the Arab culture are very sought after traits. A good mix is the best way, situationally dependent upon the mission, enemy, etc.
You are demonstrating a really poor grasp of the concepts at work, here.
You are applying American rights guaranteed to American citizens and others within the United States to our enemies abroad. Where does it say that foreign combatants and those suspected of being the enemy in a foreign land are afforded American Constitutional rights??
If your logic were correct, then we would also not be able to SHOOT these guys in street skirmishes because we'd be denying them a fair trial...
I suggest you learn which doctrines apply and which ones don't.
-blackmind