Yes, of course. The whole idea of CCW is you never know what's going to happen when. Why is going to church -- driving there, emerging from your vehicle, sitting in church, loading up the family, the drive home, and re-entering your house -- any different? I had a S&W 642 in my pocket when my daughter was baptized. I did lay off a little for my wedding, though -- only carried a Benchmade AFCK. My four best men all had Benchmades, too, courtesy of me!
Church--Carry or no carry?
- Thread starter LASur5r
- Start date
"Tactical lookout"
I guess that, being the Audio Tech (and Security) for our church, I have the best defensive seat in the house: i can see the entire congregation and most of the hallway/reception area outside the main sanctuary.
We have had several burglaries in past years, just as folks were going to the altar for prayer or at tithe, when masses of folks go forward. All were apprehended. This is another reason for CCW, in case the alledged are confronted/escorted.
I've carried open & CCW for over 23 years, on & off; however, especially since 9/11/01, I've carried full-time, especially at church, since in an enemy's eyes, church is percieved as a "gun-free zone" and what better place for a mass "hit"?
Locally, a large Baptist church experienced two teenage boys who came in & started shooting the place up; needless to say, most, if not all, of the ushers are CCW.
Needless to say, some states forbid CCW in church; however, nothing's said about open-carry. Still some states say "where people assemble" like where I live. However, I feel as if I should adhere to God's principles & defend my family & friends, if need be, especially in these times.
I guess that, being the Audio Tech (and Security) for our church, I have the best defensive seat in the house: i can see the entire congregation and most of the hallway/reception area outside the main sanctuary.
We have had several burglaries in past years, just as folks were going to the altar for prayer or at tithe, when masses of folks go forward. All were apprehended. This is another reason for CCW, in case the alledged are confronted/escorted.
I've carried open & CCW for over 23 years, on & off; however, especially since 9/11/01, I've carried full-time, especially at church, since in an enemy's eyes, church is percieved as a "gun-free zone" and what better place for a mass "hit"?
Locally, a large Baptist church experienced two teenage boys who came in & started shooting the place up; needless to say, most, if not all, of the ushers are CCW.
Needless to say, some states forbid CCW in church; however, nothing's said about open-carry. Still some states say "where people assemble" like where I live. However, I feel as if I should adhere to God's principles & defend my family & friends, if need be, especially in these times.
do I carry in church?
Here's a pic of my wedding, there were a number of us who were kilt clad and armed.
that's my ceremonial dirk on my hip. The blade is about 15 inches long, and too dull to cut butter.
i wasn't going to post it before and get labeled a skirt-wearer, but now that TFL is going away, i thought that it should be added for posterity.
spenny
proud TFL alumnus
Here's a pic of my wedding, there were a number of us who were kilt clad and armed.
that's my ceremonial dirk on my hip. The blade is about 15 inches long, and too dull to cut butter.
i wasn't going to post it before and get labeled a skirt-wearer, but now that TFL is going away, i thought that it should be added for posterity.
spenny
proud TFL alumnus
Attachments
here's one where the preist, Fr. Jeff wants to show everyone my skene dhu, this is the knife that was hidden on your person, and now is traditionally worn sticking out of your sock.
as for carry in my regular church?
well, first it's in DC as in Washington DC so that's a no-no,
second, i grew up quaker, i'm probably the only quaker on TFL. but it's ok I come from a long line of bad quakers, i have quaker forebearers that fought in the revolution and in the civil war, and my dad was in the army.
so no, i dont carry in my regular church.
as for carry in my regular church?
well, first it's in DC as in Washington DC so that's a no-no,
second, i grew up quaker, i'm probably the only quaker on TFL. but it's ok I come from a long line of bad quakers, i have quaker forebearers that fought in the revolution and in the civil war, and my dad was in the army.
so no, i dont carry in my regular church.
Attachments
CCW IN CHURCH
Show me a place, a type of building, business, location that has never had a attack occur within and I'll consider not carrying there. Unfortunately attacks occur all too often in places we feel are benign. Perhaps that is why attacks occur there "A feeling or sense of security". I propose that there is a formula that states the more lawfully carried firearms are in a place it also decreases the numbers of attacks at that place. The reverse, I hold, is also true. How many attacks occur in police stations, gun stores or shooting ranges?.
Interesting side note. Here in Utah we in the gun rights groups are constantly fighting back the "common Sense" argument that legal CCW should be banned in churches.
There probably are not that many folks with CCW in this state who actually carry in church. So in actual efect on the majority of CCW it would have little impact, but in perception to evil doers it would be huge in that they would be assured that no one would be returning fire in defense of the bad guys attack inside.
My .02 worth,
Show me a place, a type of building, business, location that has never had a attack occur within and I'll consider not carrying there. Unfortunately attacks occur all too often in places we feel are benign. Perhaps that is why attacks occur there "A feeling or sense of security". I propose that there is a formula that states the more lawfully carried firearms are in a place it also decreases the numbers of attacks at that place. The reverse, I hold, is also true. How many attacks occur in police stations, gun stores or shooting ranges?.
Interesting side note. Here in Utah we in the gun rights groups are constantly fighting back the "common Sense" argument that legal CCW should be banned in churches.
There probably are not that many folks with CCW in this state who actually carry in church. So in actual efect on the majority of CCW it would have little impact, but in perception to evil doers it would be huge in that they would be assured that no one would be returning fire in defense of the bad guys attack inside.
My .02 worth,
Spenny,
Was it one of your ancestors who heard an intruder in his home one night? It was some old Quaker gentleman, anyway, and he observed the intruder was stealing all the silver. So he pulled out his old rifle, aimed it, and spoke up: "Friend, I mean thee no harm, but thou standest where I am about to shoot."
pax
Preacherman
New member
Unfortunately, under Louisiana law, CCW permit holders are explicitly forbidden to carry in church. This causes me heartburn, not just in a service, but if I have to go and check out / lock up the church late at night... I mean, who knows what I might find? I solved the problem by getting an appointment as a Special Deputy with the local sheriff's department. Now I can carry as I lock up, and be legal!
Pax,
I have no factual knowledge that it was one of my forebearers, but my friends from meeting have all decided that he *must* have been related
I have always heard it thusly:
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world, but thee is standing where my shotgun is pointed.
more quaker humor:
A Quaker was hauling a load of hay down the road to the barn. He had settled his hay wagon into a good set of ruts that would serve quitewell until he got to his barnyard gate.
The road ran between his property and the next farm, and as bad luck would have it when he rounded the bend, he saw that his Presbyterian neighbor was also driving a loaded hay wagon toward him, settled into the exact same set of convenient ruts.
Both men halted their horses, and sat under the hot July sun considering what to do. Someone was going to have to get down and help the horses pull a wagon of the ruts and go around the other.
Finally the Quaker stood up on the box and waved his hat and shouted,
"If thee chooses not to pull out, I will do for thee what I did for the other fellow back there..."
The Presbyterian considered. "I never heard a Quaker talk like that before," he mused. "Maybe I had better pull out."
So the man got down and with much sweating and swearing he helped his horses haul his wagon out of the ruts.
As he was pulling even with the Quaker, his curiosity overcame him.
"I've got to know," he said, "what was it you did to the other fellow?"
The Quaker looked puzzled and said, "Oh, of course, I pulled out for him!"
I have no factual knowledge that it was one of my forebearers, but my friends from meeting have all decided that he *must* have been related
I have always heard it thusly:
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world, but thee is standing where my shotgun is pointed.
more quaker humor:
A Quaker was hauling a load of hay down the road to the barn. He had settled his hay wagon into a good set of ruts that would serve quitewell until he got to his barnyard gate.
The road ran between his property and the next farm, and as bad luck would have it when he rounded the bend, he saw that his Presbyterian neighbor was also driving a loaded hay wagon toward him, settled into the exact same set of convenient ruts.
Both men halted their horses, and sat under the hot July sun considering what to do. Someone was going to have to get down and help the horses pull a wagon of the ruts and go around the other.
Finally the Quaker stood up on the box and waved his hat and shouted,
"If thee chooses not to pull out, I will do for thee what I did for the other fellow back there..."
The Presbyterian considered. "I never heard a Quaker talk like that before," he mused. "Maybe I had better pull out."
So the man got down and with much sweating and swearing he helped his horses haul his wagon out of the ruts.
As he was pulling even with the Quaker, his curiosity overcame him.
"I've got to know," he said, "what was it you did to the other fellow?"
The Quaker looked puzzled and said, "Oh, of course, I pulled out for him!"
Master Blaster
New member
The Lord made Handguns and he gave us hands to use them with.
Praise the Lord and pass the Ammo.
Praise the Lord and pass the Ammo.
Sirs:
We are bound by the KJV New Testament. No where in that blessed book does it say we are to let the innocent, ourselves included, be harmed.
I take my pepper spray and thumbstud lockblade with me to Church.
I will NOT allow some violence-crazed little Shazbond or Moonbeam
to desecrate the meeting house of the Lord.
When folks carried guns to Church, this country was a better place.
We are bound by the KJV New Testament. No where in that blessed book does it say we are to let the innocent, ourselves included, be harmed.
I take my pepper spray and thumbstud lockblade with me to Church.
I will NOT allow some violence-crazed little Shazbond or Moonbeam
to desecrate the meeting house of the Lord.
When folks carried guns to Church, this country was a better place.
Gabe Suarez
New member
Of Course You Should Be Prepared To Defend Yourself In Church!!!
Gents,
TFL is not a Christian forum so I'll keep the discussion "practical". There is God's law and man's law. God's law commands us to protect our families. If we fail in this it is a bad thing. If man's law places me in a position where I have to disobey God's law, I will disobey man's law.
It is quite correct, both tactically and biblically to carry and be prepared to use weapons both in and out of church. Any pastor that does not agree with that should re-read his bible because he is wrong. Period.
Tactically speaking, we are at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction. What better target than a church service of unarmed america infidels. To the Church goer that says you should rely on God for protection and leave the gun at home, we answer that we do in fact rely on God...to make us alert, fast, and accurate. And even barring the Muslim terrorists, Churches attract all kinds. It has not been unheard of for distraught spouses, to come into a church and drag off their worshipping wives to be killed in the parking lot while the able-bodied men inside wring their hands in worry. God did not call us to be a bunch of impotent Mr. Rogers types!!
Biblically-speaking, it is not only correct to act against a man bringing evil, but it is mandatory. Christ meant the cheek-turning business for insults not physical attacks. Moreover, He specifically meant swords in Luke 22. Any other time that His men misunderstood Him, He corrected them. He did not correct them when they brought Him two swords. In fact He told them that if they didn't have a sword, they should sell what they had to make certain they had a sword.
If any of you want more biblical references that show it is correct for Christians to be armed, send me an email and I'll provide them for you. Also, I have an article on the Folly of Christian Pacifism on my site under newsletters. http://www.suarezinternational.com/pacifismstudy.html
A good part of my time these days is spent training and equipping church security teams, both scripturally AND physically.
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
Gents,
TFL is not a Christian forum so I'll keep the discussion "practical". There is God's law and man's law. God's law commands us to protect our families. If we fail in this it is a bad thing. If man's law places me in a position where I have to disobey God's law, I will disobey man's law.
It is quite correct, both tactically and biblically to carry and be prepared to use weapons both in and out of church. Any pastor that does not agree with that should re-read his bible because he is wrong. Period.
Tactically speaking, we are at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction. What better target than a church service of unarmed america infidels. To the Church goer that says you should rely on God for protection and leave the gun at home, we answer that we do in fact rely on God...to make us alert, fast, and accurate. And even barring the Muslim terrorists, Churches attract all kinds. It has not been unheard of for distraught spouses, to come into a church and drag off their worshipping wives to be killed in the parking lot while the able-bodied men inside wring their hands in worry. God did not call us to be a bunch of impotent Mr. Rogers types!!
Biblically-speaking, it is not only correct to act against a man bringing evil, but it is mandatory. Christ meant the cheek-turning business for insults not physical attacks. Moreover, He specifically meant swords in Luke 22. Any other time that His men misunderstood Him, He corrected them. He did not correct them when they brought Him two swords. In fact He told them that if they didn't have a sword, they should sell what they had to make certain they had a sword.
If any of you want more biblical references that show it is correct for Christians to be armed, send me an email and I'll provide them for you. Also, I have an article on the Folly of Christian Pacifism on my site under newsletters. http://www.suarezinternational.com/pacifismstudy.html
A good part of my time these days is spent training and equipping church security teams, both scripturally AND physically.
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
Matt Meeks
Inactive
The law in GA says no CCW at public gatherings. Isn't church a public gathering?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Okay, I will bite. I seem to recall we have been down this road before and not found a direct answer. Just where in the Bible are we encouraged to carry weapons inside of church? I am not at all against it and knowing the particular passage(s) would be beneficial for some heuristic arguments.
Actually, we are not at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction, but parts of several cultures that often include some bastardized Muslim beliefs as justification for their actions. The twisting of religion into justification for violence or war is far from a new concept and one that Christians have also been quite guilty of doing as well.
As for the Mr. Rogers and being impotent, I am not sure that is the case or a valid claim. First, he did sire two sons. Second, while he was never an advocate of violence, he directly his efforts to building one's personal spirit and self esteem based in Christian ideals. He managed to convey his teachings over more than 40 years most of which was with the nationally syndicated program. How many of us can claim such longevity with such a wide geographical influence? Mr. Rogers was all about getting along with one's neighbors, in other words, the people who are close by. His efforts were in building family and community unity. I don't recall him dealing much with issues such as geo-political turmoil.
Actually, we are not at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction, but parts of several cultures that often include some bastardized Muslim beliefs as justification for their actions. The twisting of religion into justification for violence or war is far from a new concept and one that Christians have also been quite guilty of doing as well.
As for the Mr. Rogers and being impotent, I am not sure that is the case or a valid claim. First, he did sire two sons. Second, while he was never an advocate of violence, he directly his efforts to building one's personal spirit and self esteem based in Christian ideals. He managed to convey his teachings over more than 40 years most of which was with the nationally syndicated program. How many of us can claim such longevity with such a wide geographical influence? Mr. Rogers was all about getting along with one's neighbors, in other words, the people who are close by. His efforts were in building family and community unity. I don't recall him dealing much with issues such as geo-political turmoil.
KY law
This may have changed but i think its still active. (paragraph 6)
CARRYING
It is unlawful to carry a concealed firearm on or about one`s person. This applies to carrying a concealed firearm in one`s own premises or dwelling.
Exempt from this prohibition are persons issued a license to carry concealed firearms, police officers, agents and messengers of express companies when on duty, and U.S. mail carriers on duty.
"Concealed on or about the person" has been recently defined as "concealment in such proximity to the person as to be convenient of access and within immediate physical reach." Kentucky courts consider firearms located under a driver`s seat concealed "on or about" the person, and are, therefore, unlawful. Firearms located in glove compartments, locked or unlocked, are not considered concealed.
The Department of State Police shall issue a license to carry concealed firearms if the applicant: is a state resident and has been a resident for 6 months or longer; is at least 21; is not ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to federal or state law; has not been committed to a state or federal facility for the abuse of a controlled substance or been convicted of a misdemeanor relating to controlled substances within 3 years; does not chronically and habitually use alcoholic beverages; demonstrates competence with a firearm, has not been adjudicated an incompetent or has waited 3 years from the date competency was restored; and has not been involuntarily committed to a mental institution unless he possesses a certificate from a psychiatrist stating that he has not suffered from disability for 3 years. The application shall be obtained from and submitted to the office of the sheriff in the county in which the applicant resides. The application fee is $60. The license is valid statewide for 5 years. The applicant shall submit a recent color photograph and a photocopy of a certificate of completion of a course that demonstrates competence with a firearm.
The Department of State Police shall, within 90 days, either issue a license or deny the application, in which case the applicant shall be informed in writing of the grounds for denial and his right to submit, within 30 days, documentation relating to the denial. The applicant shall also be informed of the right to seek review of the denial in the District Court of his place of residence.
A license to carry concealed firearms does not authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into any police station or sheriff`s office, any detention facility, prison, or jail, any courthouse, any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district, or any meeting of the General Assembly unless the permit holder is a member of that body, any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises, any elementary or secondary school facility, child caring facility, day care center, an area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property, any church or similar place of worship, or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
Kentucky will honor a valid license issued by another state if that state grants Kentucky residents the right to carry concealed firearms without a separate license. A person holding a valid license issued by another state, which state allows Kentucky residents to obtain a license, may apply for a Kentucky license.
It is lawful to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle.
This may have changed but i think its still active. (paragraph 6)
CARRYING
It is unlawful to carry a concealed firearm on or about one`s person. This applies to carrying a concealed firearm in one`s own premises or dwelling.
Exempt from this prohibition are persons issued a license to carry concealed firearms, police officers, agents and messengers of express companies when on duty, and U.S. mail carriers on duty.
"Concealed on or about the person" has been recently defined as "concealment in such proximity to the person as to be convenient of access and within immediate physical reach." Kentucky courts consider firearms located under a driver`s seat concealed "on or about" the person, and are, therefore, unlawful. Firearms located in glove compartments, locked or unlocked, are not considered concealed.
The Department of State Police shall issue a license to carry concealed firearms if the applicant: is a state resident and has been a resident for 6 months or longer; is at least 21; is not ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to federal or state law; has not been committed to a state or federal facility for the abuse of a controlled substance or been convicted of a misdemeanor relating to controlled substances within 3 years; does not chronically and habitually use alcoholic beverages; demonstrates competence with a firearm, has not been adjudicated an incompetent or has waited 3 years from the date competency was restored; and has not been involuntarily committed to a mental institution unless he possesses a certificate from a psychiatrist stating that he has not suffered from disability for 3 years. The application shall be obtained from and submitted to the office of the sheriff in the county in which the applicant resides. The application fee is $60. The license is valid statewide for 5 years. The applicant shall submit a recent color photograph and a photocopy of a certificate of completion of a course that demonstrates competence with a firearm.
The Department of State Police shall, within 90 days, either issue a license or deny the application, in which case the applicant shall be informed in writing of the grounds for denial and his right to submit, within 30 days, documentation relating to the denial. The applicant shall also be informed of the right to seek review of the denial in the District Court of his place of residence.
A license to carry concealed firearms does not authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into any police station or sheriff`s office, any detention facility, prison, or jail, any courthouse, any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district, or any meeting of the General Assembly unless the permit holder is a member of that body, any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises, any elementary or secondary school facility, child caring facility, day care center, an area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property, any church or similar place of worship, or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
Kentucky will honor a valid license issued by another state if that state grants Kentucky residents the right to carry concealed firearms without a separate license. A person holding a valid license issued by another state, which state allows Kentucky residents to obtain a license, may apply for a Kentucky license.
It is lawful to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle.