Church--Carry or no carry?
- Thread starter LASur5r
- Start date
Edward429451
Moderator
I still think theres no problem carrying in church if you've a humble and temperate heart but ultimately...
"lt is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man." Psalm 118:8
"lt is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man." Psalm 118:8
church carry
Since I saw private guards in Markus Dome in Venezia who carried their pistols open I think it cannot be bad if law-abiding citizens are not defenseless.
It cannot make sense, when any mad person knows that church-visitors are generally defenseless...
See under "schools"..
Since I saw private guards in Markus Dome in Venezia who carried their pistols open I think it cannot be bad if law-abiding citizens are not defenseless.
It cannot make sense, when any mad person knows that church-visitors are generally defenseless...
See under "schools"..
As stated in an above post by "logical", here in Michigan it is not legal to carry in a church or synagog without permission from the priest or rabbi. However, concealed means concealed, and I have not yet seen metal detectors at the church doors, nor have there been searches in the parking lot outside....................
On the other hand, if you're going in for a total immersion baptism......it wouldn't do the pistol any good to accompany you.
On the other hand, if you're going in for a total immersion baptism......it wouldn't do the pistol any good to accompany you.
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Matt Wallis
New member
Wow, good discussion.
Though I don't think it is wrong to carry in church, I do not. I am a Pastor as well, and neither do I carry when I am officiating a service. For me, the difference lies between self-defense against generic crime/evil and persecution/martyrdom.
I believe that the Bible clearly teaches a right and obligation to stand up to evil and criminals. So I have no problem with self-defense or defense of others. But I also think Scripture draws a line between general lawlessness (for which the gov't and citizens are allowed to "wield the sword" according to Romans13) and persecution for the faith. The Gospel is never to be advanced by the use of force, but by God, who changes people's hearts. We are also told that we are blessed when persecuted.
So I figure if someone comes into church to do me harm, it is most likely because of my faith. And if it is because of my faith, then I count myself blessed.
Now, if on the other hand, the guy just wants to shake the church down for the offering money, then I got no problem with somebody blowing them away!
Matt
Though I don't think it is wrong to carry in church, I do not. I am a Pastor as well, and neither do I carry when I am officiating a service. For me, the difference lies between self-defense against generic crime/evil and persecution/martyrdom.
I believe that the Bible clearly teaches a right and obligation to stand up to evil and criminals. So I have no problem with self-defense or defense of others. But I also think Scripture draws a line between general lawlessness (for which the gov't and citizens are allowed to "wield the sword" according to Romans13) and persecution for the faith. The Gospel is never to be advanced by the use of force, but by God, who changes people's hearts. We are also told that we are blessed when persecuted.
So I figure if someone comes into church to do me harm, it is most likely because of my faith. And if it is because of my faith, then I count myself blessed.
Now, if on the other hand, the guy just wants to shake the church down for the offering money, then I got no problem with somebody blowing them away!
Matt
IIRC the "turn the other cheek" verse denotes three situations:
a) someone strikes your cheek (turn the other)
b) someone sues for your coat (give him the shirt too)
c) someone forces you to walk a mile (go another)
ad a) striking the cheek is still regarded as an insult[\B] delible only with blood in many cultures (African, Middle and Far East come to mind). => if someone insults you, do not resist, rather shame him by not resisting.
ad b) defense against a wrongful tort can be more expensive than paying off the other party (I am sure you know about the legal costs of nuisance suits brought agaist gun makers...). => be prudent and pay the lesser sum, shame the other by giving more than he would force from you
ad c) roman soldiers were entitled to offload their packs to non-roman-citizens who had to carry that load for one mile (how else do you think the romans were able to march so fast?), before flinging it down. The soldier had to find another subject to carry the load for another mile => shame him who treats you as a mule by walking a second mile
These situations are all undesirable, but not life threatening. They do not pertain to the defense of life or limb.
Go armed if you legally can.
a) someone strikes your cheek (turn the other)
b) someone sues for your coat (give him the shirt too)
c) someone forces you to walk a mile (go another)
ad a) striking the cheek is still regarded as an insult[\B] delible only with blood in many cultures (African, Middle and Far East come to mind). => if someone insults you, do not resist, rather shame him by not resisting.
ad b) defense against a wrongful tort can be more expensive than paying off the other party (I am sure you know about the legal costs of nuisance suits brought agaist gun makers...). => be prudent and pay the lesser sum, shame the other by giving more than he would force from you
ad c) roman soldiers were entitled to offload their packs to non-roman-citizens who had to carry that load for one mile (how else do you think the romans were able to march so fast?), before flinging it down. The soldier had to find another subject to carry the load for another mile => shame him who treats you as a mule by walking a second mile
These situations are all undesirable, but not life threatening. They do not pertain to the defense of life or limb.
Go armed if you legally can.
Matt,
You make a good distinction.
I am usually armed at church. This is because I carry everywhere I go. I don't specifically carry "TO" church; but I do carry, and go to church. I'm not armed against religious persecution, but I am armed -- and I suppose religious persecution could be the cause for someone shooting up a sanctuary. Or, as you say, he could just be after the money in the offering plate.
If someone tries to harm others while I have the means to defend those others, I will do my best to prevent it. If someone tries to harm me, I will do my best to defend my own life. This is true regardless of where I am when it happens, whether at church or elsewhere. If I have the means to prevent evil, and don't at least try to do so, then I believe the blood of the victims would be on my own hands as well as on those of the murderer.
My conscience is bound to protect myself and my family, so I carry the tools to do so. Other Christians might find themselves bound to accept whatever happens to them, and unable to carry a gun at all, or unable to carry a gun at church -- and be just as right in the eyes of God. Regardless of what beliefs others may have, I am bound to do what my conscience requires of me, and I will do it.
Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd tell the motives of the Bad Guys at the moment something happened. I'm not quite callous enough to say, 'shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out.' But I am callous enough to say that my conscience allows me to protect myself and others regardless of where I am at the time, and that God knows my heart.
And that's where I rest.
pax
Or why is my freedom judged by another man's conscience? -- the apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 10:29
You make a good distinction.
I am usually armed at church. This is because I carry everywhere I go. I don't specifically carry "TO" church; but I do carry, and go to church. I'm not armed against religious persecution, but I am armed -- and I suppose religious persecution could be the cause for someone shooting up a sanctuary. Or, as you say, he could just be after the money in the offering plate.
If someone tries to harm others while I have the means to defend those others, I will do my best to prevent it. If someone tries to harm me, I will do my best to defend my own life. This is true regardless of where I am when it happens, whether at church or elsewhere. If I have the means to prevent evil, and don't at least try to do so, then I believe the blood of the victims would be on my own hands as well as on those of the murderer.
My conscience is bound to protect myself and my family, so I carry the tools to do so. Other Christians might find themselves bound to accept whatever happens to them, and unable to carry a gun at all, or unable to carry a gun at church -- and be just as right in the eyes of God. Regardless of what beliefs others may have, I am bound to do what my conscience requires of me, and I will do it.
Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd tell the motives of the Bad Guys at the moment something happened. I'm not quite callous enough to say, 'shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out.' But I am callous enough to say that my conscience allows me to protect myself and others regardless of where I am at the time, and that God knows my heart.
And that's where I rest.
pax
Or why is my freedom judged by another man's conscience? -- the apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 10:29
Well said Gunter. I too believe that this is one of the most oft mis-used quotes from scripture. There is a somewhat long, but very worthwhile disertation on the topic of Christianity and Pacifism written by Fr. Frog (also has some great pages on Scout Rifles and Firearm FAQ.) at http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/religion.htm
I would urge anyone who struggles with this idea to read it.
As for the question of the original post, because I live in Texas, and my church is also a school, and I have to walk throught the school portion to pick up my daughters when the service is over, and I do not wish to willfully break the law in a place of worship, I do not carry. (Note to those Texans out there, it is perfectly fine to carry in a church if they don't post a 30.06 and the church doesn't operate a school, but mine does....)
It is worth stating that I do carry everywhere else that I legally can, and avoid at almost all costs those places I can not.
I would urge anyone who struggles with this idea to read it.
As for the question of the original post, because I live in Texas, and my church is also a school, and I have to walk throught the school portion to pick up my daughters when the service is over, and I do not wish to willfully break the law in a place of worship, I do not carry. (Note to those Texans out there, it is perfectly fine to carry in a church if they don't post a 30.06 and the church doesn't operate a school, but mine does....)
It is worth stating that I do carry everywhere else that I legally can, and avoid at almost all costs those places I can not.
another okie
New member
Legal in Okla., so I do carry there. The only real problem is that the huggers have taken over in recent years, so you have to learn to put your arms down low and guide their arms up above your IWB.
About a year ago I was on a church committee that met on Sunday afternoons. One day the door to the parish hall flew upon, a kid shouted "Satan's here" and ran away, leaving the door open. The next week the same thing happened, except that there were two of them. (Neither time did we get a look at them.) Recognizing escalating behavior, we moved the time of the meetings, but both times I had my Glock 26 IWB and it sure made me feel better.
About a year ago I was on a church committee that met on Sunday afternoons. One day the door to the parish hall flew upon, a kid shouted "Satan's here" and ran away, leaving the door open. The next week the same thing happened, except that there were two of them. (Neither time did we get a look at them.) Recognizing escalating behavior, we moved the time of the meetings, but both times I had my Glock 26 IWB and it sure made me feel better.
Mannlicher
New member
I dont go, so it is a moot point
Even if you're not a member or a regular attendee of a church, you'll still find yourself in one from time to time, if you have any friends or family. Weddings, funerals, some community events, occasional baptisms and such that people get invited to will pop up.
I carry each and every time I go to church. I still attend the church where I was baptized, confirmed, and married in. I could NEVER let happen there what happened in Ft. Worth in 1999.
(Read that link; it's chilling.) One man with a gun could have ended so much suffering, when a madman terrorized 150 or more, who were forced to cower like sheep in their own sanctuary. This happens worldwide. It happened in Rawanda in a famous incident, too.
It used to be illegal to carry in TX, but that's thankfully changed, now. Please alwayscarry when you legally can.
I carry each and every time I go to church. I still attend the church where I was baptized, confirmed, and married in. I could NEVER let happen there what happened in Ft. Worth in 1999.
(Read that link; it's chilling.) One man with a gun could have ended so much suffering, when a madman terrorized 150 or more, who were forced to cower like sheep in their own sanctuary. This happens worldwide. It happened in Rawanda in a famous incident, too.
It used to be illegal to carry in TX, but that's thankfully changed, now. Please alwayscarry when you legally can.
This has been a well reasoned discussion, I've enjoyed following it. Personally I believe that if I am entitled at all to armed defence, the location is irrelevant. God has provided guidelines and examples for us to learn from, it is up to us to make the decisions, however.
It is worth noting that this trend to be UNARMED is very recent in human history. Historically it has been slaves or heavily subjegated peoples that were forbidden arms. This is a generalization, of course... The Church has long been an armed body, for preservation of itself, and during some rather ugly periods in history which were probably more of a power struggle than anything else.
As an example I submit to you the VERY armed guards at the Vatican with modern "assault" rifles.
It is worth noting that this trend to be UNARMED is very recent in human history. Historically it has been slaves or heavily subjegated peoples that were forbidden arms. This is a generalization, of course... The Church has long been an armed body, for preservation of itself, and during some rather ugly periods in history which were probably more of a power struggle than anything else.
As an example I submit to you the VERY armed guards at the Vatican with modern "assault" rifles.