I don't know newriverfisher, but.... I'd go with the big guns. I've owned a Mossberg Silver Reserve, and it was junk. I could barely give it away as a trade-in. Cabelas has a sale coming up. Citori Satin Hunters in 12 and 20 gauge, for $1099. This is a lifetime gun, and will be enjoyed long after the couple hundred dollar increase in price is forgotten. Some people learn by listening, some people learn from their mistakes. Good luck. Mark
"Cheap" over and unders
- Thread starter rc
- Start date
speaking for the guys that post here a lot ...because we like it here/and we like to bs about guns...
I speak for myself only, but I doubt any of us, that have been around guns for a long time...just say bad things about inexpensive shotguns ...because we're trying to talk you into spending more money.
Personally, I wish ....one of these inexpesive O/U's under $1,000 ( or pick any threshhold amount ) would actually be built properly with decent parts, hold up for some reasonable amount of limited use for 5 yrs, 15 yrs, etc - and allow new shooters to get into this pastime at a level of investment - that some of us greybeards did when we were in our 20's ....but as much as I've tried to like some of these guns ...Stoeger, Mossberg, TriStar, etc ...I just can't recommend them ...but I hope it changes !! I hope.../ but I'm not seeing any evidence of it yet ...and from my perspective, most of these low end mfg's are just posers and wanna-be's taking money from customers - that want what Beretta or Browning offer ......and I think they're taking advantage of consumers ...not making affordable products. So I'll keep listening - and checking --and hoping ..../ and I'll keep buying as many used Browning Citori O/U's as I need to pass onto the grandkids someday as a first gun because I can....and I know what they are ...I don't have to guess if they'll fail ...
I speak for myself only, but I doubt any of us, that have been around guns for a long time...just say bad things about inexpensive shotguns ...because we're trying to talk you into spending more money.
Personally, I wish ....one of these inexpesive O/U's under $1,000 ( or pick any threshhold amount ) would actually be built properly with decent parts, hold up for some reasonable amount of limited use for 5 yrs, 15 yrs, etc - and allow new shooters to get into this pastime at a level of investment - that some of us greybeards did when we were in our 20's ....but as much as I've tried to like some of these guns ...Stoeger, Mossberg, TriStar, etc ...I just can't recommend them ...but I hope it changes !! I hope.../ but I'm not seeing any evidence of it yet ...and from my perspective, most of these low end mfg's are just posers and wanna-be's taking money from customers - that want what Beretta or Browning offer ......and I think they're taking advantage of consumers ...not making affordable products. So I'll keep listening - and checking --and hoping ..../ and I'll keep buying as many used Browning Citori O/U's as I need to pass onto the grandkids someday as a first gun because I can....and I know what they are ...I don't have to guess if they'll fail ...
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I haven't shot them before, but I have heard good stuff from people who own yildiz shotguns. Seems that they are pretty much only sold at academy from what I have seen.
Again, I haven't shot them before, so It's not first hand experience.
Maybe someone here has some experience with em.
Again, I haven't shot them before, so It's not first hand experience.
Maybe someone here has some experience with em.
I only speak from my personal experence. My Stoeger Condor has held up and I do use it a lot. I don't know for sure how many rounds I've shot through it but I do know I crossed the 1000 mark a few months ago and it's still tight and right on target. I will continue to use it like I have been and if it does ever fail, I'll post it here first.
OkieCruffler
New member
I've got a Yildiz 20 O/U that I've run about 1500 rds thru, hardly an endurance test, and it's still as tight as it was when I bought it. I should mention it's my second Yildiz, the second one gave me no trouble either. It's too light for my taste but has incrediably nice wood. It does shoot to POA with both barrels as did my first. For just a utility type gun it works well. The guys I shoot with have been impressed with it and have declared it to be pretty good for a cheap gun (their idea of cheap is anything under $5000 so they lump it in with some pretty decent pieces). Mine now belongs to my wife. I'd just as soon shoot my old 311.
Cheap O/U
I know many scoff at the Stoeger Condor, but my son and I both have one. We have both run well over 1K rounds through them per year for the past 4 years. Both guns are going strong and we think nothing of taking them to the field or the duck blind. The first year my son got his Condor he ran at least 2500 rounds through it. Neither of the guns has required any repairs and both barrels shoot to point of aim. Ours have been good guns.
I know many scoff at the Stoeger Condor, but my son and I both have one. We have both run well over 1K rounds through them per year for the past 4 years. Both guns are going strong and we think nothing of taking them to the field or the duck blind. The first year my son got his Condor he ran at least 2500 rounds through it. Neither of the guns has required any repairs and both barrels shoot to point of aim. Ours have been good guns.
oneounceload
Moderator
I guess it just comes down to what folks consider a lot of usage.
Zippy, BigJim, and myself see posters talking about shooting 1,000 rounds through a gun over a couple of years, while one of us might do that in a weekend tournament.
IF you shoot a flat a year or so, then one of the cheaper guns MAY last you a few years; whereas if you gave it a really good workout, it might last you a few months
There is obviously a market for the cheap, price-point built guns as folks THINK they are getting quality because of the looks, but many do not know how to check out a good O/U or SxS and know it from a poor one.
Fit, triggers, barrel regulation, perfect balance, properly struck barrels - all of that takes times and hand-labor by craftsmen, hence the prices for the better made guns
An AyA is an example - the base model - 4/53 - sells at Cabela's for about $3500. That bottom model's barrels get the same hand filing and striking, the same hand labor regulating and laying up as does their $15K Model 1. AyA, because of that attention to detail in the barrels doesn't make as much as they do on the fancier models
You won't see that on Stoeger, Yildiz, Baikal, CZ, or others in that price range - they can't do it and sell them for the price they do
Zippy, BigJim, and myself see posters talking about shooting 1,000 rounds through a gun over a couple of years, while one of us might do that in a weekend tournament.
IF you shoot a flat a year or so, then one of the cheaper guns MAY last you a few years; whereas if you gave it a really good workout, it might last you a few months
There is obviously a market for the cheap, price-point built guns as folks THINK they are getting quality because of the looks, but many do not know how to check out a good O/U or SxS and know it from a poor one.
Fit, triggers, barrel regulation, perfect balance, properly struck barrels - all of that takes times and hand-labor by craftsmen, hence the prices for the better made guns
An AyA is an example - the base model - 4/53 - sells at Cabela's for about $3500. That bottom model's barrels get the same hand filing and striking, the same hand labor regulating and laying up as does their $15K Model 1. AyA, because of that attention to detail in the barrels doesn't make as much as they do on the fancier models
You won't see that on Stoeger, Yildiz, Baikal, CZ, or others in that price range - they can't do it and sell them for the price they do
OkieCruffler
New member
Honestly, how many people on this board shoot 1000rds a weekend? If my numbers are correct I ran thru just a little over 5000rds last year, mostly thu my 311. Would the Yildiz handle 5K in a year? Who knows. There are several folks over on shotgun world keeping track of their round counts who have hit over 4K, still not the numbers you hardcore clay shooters are racking up. Now me, I honestly don't care. If my main 311 dies tomorrow I know where I can find another. Been shooting this one now for about 7 years and IIRC I paid $325 for it. Sure, it's a pig on a shovel but after 25 years of practice I swing a porker pretty well apparently. While I may never run 25 straight, I have a damn good time everytime I take it out.
For every Steely Eyed Target Shark out there, there's a truckload of guys shooting less than a flat a year. But, the industry says the average shooter (Whoever THAT is) burns up 1500-2000 shells each year.
Half of that is on Doves.
I shoot less that I'd like to, but I still will run 7K to 10K shells through the Beretta this year. And probably will not have any issues with it.
I doubt I could do that with a less expensive O/U.Even the fine little SKB I like for doves will not hold up over the long run for truckloads of shells.
Out the door, the Beretta cost me less than reloading components did that year.
Unless you go for boutique shotguns, the major expenses are ammo and range fees.
Until I could afford that Beretta, I shot 870s and enjoyed it immensely. Now, the big advantage's I don't have to bend over and pick up empties.
I may score a trifle better with the O/U, but it's close.
Half of that is on Doves.
I shoot less that I'd like to, but I still will run 7K to 10K shells through the Beretta this year. And probably will not have any issues with it.
I doubt I could do that with a less expensive O/U.Even the fine little SKB I like for doves will not hold up over the long run for truckloads of shells.
Out the door, the Beretta cost me less than reloading components did that year.
Unless you go for boutique shotguns, the major expenses are ammo and range fees.
Until I could afford that Beretta, I shot 870s and enjoyed it immensely. Now, the big advantage's I don't have to bend over and pick up empties.
I may score a trifle better with the O/U, but it's close.
On all of these discussions about which gun should I buy ...
To me its a matter of education ...and knowing what is out there / what are some of the dominant guns that have proven over time that they will stand up to a reasonable amount of use / and yes, it depends on what you mean by reasonable use ... 100 shells a week / 200 shells a week or 100 shells a month ...it just depends.
If, in these discussions, we at least all state our opinions and our experience - so the OP can go into their decision with their eyes open ...we've accomplished something. There is no way to predict if some of these budget O/U's will shoot to point of aim / break at 1,000 shells or 10,000 shells ...
Not everybody can afford a Browning or a Beretta ...and some guys that can afford them ...don't think they want that kind of a gun in the field or a duck blind or whatever ...
but I met a young guy in his late 20's probably / in a gunstore yesterday ...and he kept saying he shot a Citori ...and he just couldn't understand that not all Browning Citori's are the same / that there are now 28 models of the Citori ...and he didn't even know there was a Cynergy line of Browning O/U's ....and all this conversation came up because the shop owner was showing me a Citori XS Skeet O/U in 28ga ...and the guy did not know there was a 28ga ( he knew there was a 12, 16, 20ga and a .410 ...) but he'd never heard anyone talk about a 28ga ...and had no idea that some of us shot 28ga guns in Skeet, for bird hunting, etc.../ and this particular gun was used, but in very good shape for $ 2,000 ...and although I already have the exact same gun ...I was considering adding this gun to my collection as an extra gun as a gift for one of the kids down the road. All this young guy heard was - Citori and $ 2,000 --- and he thought it was ridiculous....that anyone would pay $2,000 for any shotgun / let alone hunt with it ...
We had a pleasant discussion about a number of different shotguns / and less expensive guns, etc ...same thing as on this thread...( and I decided I didn't want the extra 28ga ..since I already had an identical one )...including some high end Berettas, Brownings and Krieghoffs hanging on the wall for sale from $3,000 - over $ 10,000 ....and why they were priced where they were ( and they were all used ..)... Noone had ever taken the time to talk to him / or he had never asked ...so it was a good conversation ...and I hope he left with some new info ..
To me its a matter of education ...and knowing what is out there / what are some of the dominant guns that have proven over time that they will stand up to a reasonable amount of use / and yes, it depends on what you mean by reasonable use ... 100 shells a week / 200 shells a week or 100 shells a month ...it just depends.
If, in these discussions, we at least all state our opinions and our experience - so the OP can go into their decision with their eyes open ...we've accomplished something. There is no way to predict if some of these budget O/U's will shoot to point of aim / break at 1,000 shells or 10,000 shells ...
Not everybody can afford a Browning or a Beretta ...and some guys that can afford them ...don't think they want that kind of a gun in the field or a duck blind or whatever ...
but I met a young guy in his late 20's probably / in a gunstore yesterday ...and he kept saying he shot a Citori ...and he just couldn't understand that not all Browning Citori's are the same / that there are now 28 models of the Citori ...and he didn't even know there was a Cynergy line of Browning O/U's ....and all this conversation came up because the shop owner was showing me a Citori XS Skeet O/U in 28ga ...and the guy did not know there was a 28ga ( he knew there was a 12, 16, 20ga and a .410 ...) but he'd never heard anyone talk about a 28ga ...and had no idea that some of us shot 28ga guns in Skeet, for bird hunting, etc.../ and this particular gun was used, but in very good shape for $ 2,000 ...and although I already have the exact same gun ...I was considering adding this gun to my collection as an extra gun as a gift for one of the kids down the road. All this young guy heard was - Citori and $ 2,000 --- and he thought it was ridiculous....that anyone would pay $2,000 for any shotgun / let alone hunt with it ...
We had a pleasant discussion about a number of different shotguns / and less expensive guns, etc ...same thing as on this thread...( and I decided I didn't want the extra 28ga ..since I already had an identical one )...including some high end Berettas, Brownings and Krieghoffs hanging on the wall for sale from $3,000 - over $ 10,000 ....and why they were priced where they were ( and they were all used ..)... Noone had ever taken the time to talk to him / or he had never asked ...so it was a good conversation ...and I hope he left with some new info ..
OkieCruffler
New member
Makes you almost feel sorry for them until you realize how many of those shots actually hit birds.
I enjoy these little discussions as well, but I hate when I see advice given to a new shooter that leaves them feeling like they can't afford to try clay shooting. I'm not even going to say that happens the majority of the time but it happens alot. I make good money, I own my house and 2 vehicles free and clear, but I'd have to think long and hard about starting any hobby if I had to drop a couple of grand just to get started. What I really wish is that I had followed my own advice that I give to everyone who asks about the soviet/turkish SXS's when I bought this yildiz. As I said, there's nothing really wrong with it, but for about the same coin I could have bought a pretty decent ithica or savage that I could have actually gotten a warm feeling for.
We're all at different points in our lives Okie ....and you're right / you can have a lot of fun shooting clays with a $ 500 gun ....and no reason not to.
The problem comes in when these gun shops take a young guys money ...and he only ends up with 10% of the gun he thought he was getting... But if a guy like you goes into the decision with his eyes open - I have no issues with it ...
Guys do a lot of research when they buy a car, a computer, a TV, a tool ...but they believe gun counter salesmen 100% ...without checking anything out ...its just amazing to me...
The problem comes in when these gun shops take a young guys money ...and he only ends up with 10% of the gun he thought he was getting... But if a guy like you goes into the decision with his eyes open - I have no issues with it ...
Guys do a lot of research when they buy a car, a computer, a TV, a tool ...but they believe gun counter salesmen 100% ...without checking anything out ...its just amazing to me...
OkieCruffler
New member
I've run into more bad advice coming from the other side of that gun counter than anywhere this side of a doctor's office. My best advice to anyone looking to buy a gun, shot, hand or long, is to come to my ranges. There's always a long line of folks more than happy to loan a nubie a gun to try. I'll never forget my first day on the trap field when I was having trouble hitting with my 311 and a guy walked up and handed me his K80 trap and told me to try it. I didn't know I didn't know a K80 from an M80 at the time, it was only later that I found out that gun cost several times what the jeep I drove to the range that day did. I shoot now with an old fella who brings a dozen O/U's to the range every day, the cheapest of which is a cherry 20ga 101 that has more than a few drops of my slobber on. He does it for the simple joy of letting someone enjoy shooting them. I hope everyone has access to places and people like this. And that's what it's really all about, getting more people involved in shooting, whatever the sport.
goldduster
Inactive
Citori
Hey, Oregunner, where can I get a copy of that Cabela ad for a Citori Satin Hunter 12ga for $1,099. I just bought one at Bass Pro for $1,349 and thought it was a deal. Or are there any Cabela's in NorCal?
Hey, Oregunner, where can I get a copy of that Cabela ad for a Citori Satin Hunter 12ga for $1,099. I just bought one at Bass Pro for $1,349 and thought it was a deal. Or are there any Cabela's in NorCal?
I got the flyer in the mail earlier in the month. It was a coupon ad. I checked the website www.cabelas.com and I don't see it anymore, must have expired. I don't see any stores in California. Sorry. Mark
goldduster
Inactive
Citori
Thanks, I appreciate it. I've got the Citori in Jail (in Califoria, you must wait 10 days after your purchase a gun, before you can take possession) and had visions of saving $250. The closest Cabela is in Reno, but even though it is close, its still in another state.
HEY CABELA, WE NEED A STORE IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA!!!!
Thanks, I appreciate it. I've got the Citori in Jail (in Califoria, you must wait 10 days after your purchase a gun, before you can take possession) and had visions of saving $250. The closest Cabela is in Reno, but even though it is close, its still in another state.
HEY CABELA, WE NEED A STORE IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA!!!!